--- 3dwavedave <dlt44@ipa.net> wrote:
> Bo
>
> You asked:
>
> > Says Wavedave, but I wonder ...if in the future
> some contact with
> > extra-terrestials (tongue in cheek) should be
> made, would it be
> > impossible that they have reached the social and
> intellectual stages?
>
> Under the MoQ, as Pirsig currently concieves it?
> Yes, impossible. Based
> on the way he has related subjects and objects to
> the MoQ levels all
> values above biological are exclusively human.
>
> Then on page 18 when Magnus discussing sheep and
> herds asks "So what
> level does the sheep belong to to?"
>
> He (Pirsig) responds;
> "Using the MOQ description of biology as objective
> and society as
> subjective, it is clear that sheep are biological. A
> herd of sheep is
> also biological."
>
> Pirsig then drops the hammer,
>
> "This is why it is important not to extend the term
> "society" beyond the
> dictionary definition: "a group of HUMAN BEINGS
> broadly distinguished
> from other groups by mutual interests, participation
> in characteristic
> relationships, shared institutions, and a common
> culture." [MY EMPHASIS]
>
> Because the commonsense interpretation of "aliens"
> means "not human" or
> "of other groups" and "societies" are exclusively "a
> group of human
> beings" aliens cannot have evolved social, and thus
> intellectural values
> under the MOQ. Which is in part my objection to
> Pirsig's relation of
> "objective" and "subjective" to the MOQ. Surely ET
> has these values !
> He's just too cute not to have them, Right?
Pirsig may or may not actually believe that the social
and intellectual levels can't be achieved by ET, he
would have to answer the question himself. However,
his defense of "society" from being applied to robots
and atoms doesn't mean he believes that social
patterns of value are applicable only to humans. Yes,
sheep are dumb and don't exhibit any signs of value on
a social or intellectual level that can't be
attributed to instinct, whatever that is. However,
primates, canines, and dolphins all exhibit definite
social values, and one could argue intellectual values
as well. I find it hard to believe that the upper
levels of the MOQ are limited to a certain species on
this planet, and if that is what we believe Pirsig is
defining, then we need to clarify our definitions.
-Jason
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