On 7 May 2002 at 19:29, jason bastin wrote:
> Hello, this is my first time responding so please
> exuse my ignorance of protocol and my still developing
> understanding of MOQ.
Hello and welcome Jason.
Thanks for your well-formulated response and questionnaire.
> I am a bit confused by this use of an "expression
> list". Does each level correspond with the MOQ
> hierarchy as an "expression" of that pattern of value?
> In other words, are emotions an expression of social
> patterns of value? Aren't emotions just a pattern of
> value themselves?
Yes, emotion is how the social value expresses itself. If emotions are
value patterns themselves or THE pattern. Well, there's a tendency to
see a pattern and the value as different, but the two are really one and
the same. However, before going on I must hurry on to say that this is
my own invention and is nowhere to be found in LILA, yet, as said to
Erin, it opens a road to the MOQ which avoids certain pitfalls ... well,
you are new to this so I won't expand, but go on to your questions.
> If we can identify emotion as the
> expression of social patterns of value, what is the
> link between emotion and social patterns of value like
> bathing frequency or gender differences? What
> "feeling" valued bathing daily over weekly or monthly?
This was a funny example, Jason, but very good. Yes, indeed why do
people of one place bathe often and those of another more seldom or
not at all (I guess you mean the indoor kind?). Naturally because there
is a social pressure of doing so, and if you don't meet the standards of
that culture you FEEL BAD ...and as we don't like bad feelings we
adjust/conform. This sounds half joking, but it's serious.
Likewise, I take that by gender differences you mean dress and
behaviour codes (not biological differences) and this is an even better
example of how emotion is THE social "tool", fashion more than
anything else shows emotions' immense power. Shame or a feeling of
not belonging can actually kill (demonstrates how the social level
influence the biological level) and speaking of biology: Fashion also
includes the body which is modified to meet the (reigning) beauty
standards. Dieting the moderate instrument, but you know ...?
NB!
The SOM is absolute without clue why phenomena like anorexia and
bulimia can override the biological survival instinct (called) and actually
lead to death. This because there is no social value ...in the quality
sense - in the subject/object reality.
> I am also curious how emotion can be considered
> strictly social? Isn't fear an emotion? I know the
> emotion I feel as fear can be a biological value.
"Fear" is an ambiguous term. A biological organism will certainly
SENSE a low quality situation, but the experience doesn't linger. "Out
of eye out of mind" (do you have that saying in English?)
> For
> instance, if I am strolling through the forest and
> come one step from falling off a cliff my biology
> gives me a shot of adrenaline and I might even
> experience vertigo. I am likely to back away from the
> cliff's edge shaking, sweating, breathing heavier, and
> generally exhibiting symptoms that most people could
> agree were indicative of genuine fear. Has this
> emotion been an expression of biological or social
> patterns of value?
Excellent example Jason and one that demonstrates what we discuss
very well. Imagine an animal reaching that same position. It will
certainly receive the same adrenalin shot and back off with pounding
heart, heavy breathing (sweating?) ...but not "in horror" because that is
the added emotional layer that social value imposes on top of biological
sensing. As above said: Sensing gets "permanence" through emotions!
...as does emotions through reason.
[There might be a groping social development among the higher
primates which is indicated by emotional-like behaviour, but let that
rest]
> I am also concerned with what you mean by using
> ambiguous terms like emotion and interaction. If love
> is an example of emotion, do you discern between the
> horomone driven love between two adolescents and the
> relaxed companion love of two senior citizens?
Again, a great example. "Love" is the most ambiguous term there is (as
is everything in the subject/object context) and covers everything from
copulation to tenderness. Like in the fear example, biology releases
some hormonal "lust shot" upon the sight (smell or whatever sense
signal) of a sex partner ... "in heat", among animals and this sensation
results in an unceremonial copulation. Granted, we can be animals too
when focus is concentrated at that level, but the social-emotional reality
brings it to a new level. I am a senior citizen and know ALL stages
(grin)
> Isn't
> interaction (physical and chemical interactions) a
> pattern of value for the inorganic and biological?
The "interaction" term was (in its time) more a question of rhyme, I don't
know if this is the best description of inorganic value, so your comments
may be valid. Biological however!? Not in this context. Naturally there
are countless chemical interactions in a body, but the biological value is
SENSING ...sensing that one inorganic compound spells pain and
another pleasure and countless shades in between.
> I am sorry if this "expression list" is laid out in
> greater detail on the site, but I couldn't find the
> thread that gave the initial explanation, and I am
> very interested in understanding this better.
It's great to have (another) chance to expand on my approach to the
great MOQ teaching. If you search the archives for "expression" or
possibly "Peirce" you may find something. Peirce because that
nineteenth century philosopher developed a metaphysics that came
very close to the MOQ. Not quite it, but useful for understanding Pirsig.
Bo
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