On 8 May 2002 at 20:08, Gary Jaron wrote:
> My response: LILA does not replace ZMM. They are two images of the
> same thing. to understand this you need the Wilber tools : i.e.
> everything is a Holon made up of attributes theses include: Internal
> - External Continuum, the Whole/Individual - Part/Collective
> Continuum and with Pirsig we can add the Static - Dynamic Quality
> Continuum. ZMM is a study of the whole/individual workings of
> Quality. LILA is a study of Static-Dynamic Quality and the
> Part/Collective aspects of Quality. Romantic - Classic Quality
> continuum is still valid tools.
Gary and Platt.
(I don't know if this message has reached you, but it did not appear on
this end so I send it again)
You are right, LILA does not replace ZMM ...as literature, but to say
that the two are different images of the same thing is wrong. Maybe
true for the Quality Idea itself, but the Quality Metaphysics
underwent a profound change from the ZMM version to the MOQ of
LILA.
And then starting on Wilber! Your "eclecticism" sounds impressive,
but when it's about a metaphysics (the blueprint of reality) it
creates a mess to say that this or that person "...says the same
thing" and pick a little here and there. Also I get the impression
that you - like John Beasley - thinks that Wilber says it BETTER and
that Pirsig has erred. Well, you are obviously not the person to
yield, but here are Pirsig's words:
(I see that Platt anticipated me in citing Pirsig so I omit the
quotation)
> Don't fall into a tool trap! Every tool has its uses and its
> limitations.
> Abraham Maslow said: "If the only thing you have is a hammer, you
> will tend to treat everything as if it were a nail." A hammer is a
> useful tool to pound nails in. it is a crummy paint brush, a not
> very good pool cue, conductor's baton, useless to cut wood, etc.
> You can't function with only one tool! To avoid a tool trap, i.e.
> getting stuck in the limitations of the tool you need to 1) know
> what the tool is, how it works, realize what it's limitations are.
> 2) get more tools!
> Pirsig's Quality, Romantic-Classic Quality, Static -Dynamic Quality
> are all tools. They become more useful when you plug in more tools.
>
A work-shop can become so stuffed with tools that you can't get
anything done. I have read somewhere that the lathe (I believe) is the
master tool because with it you can make all other tools, and in this
context the MOQ is the "lathe" by which all other tools are made.
> A key tool is realizing that the basic logic we use is Aristotelian
> Logic. The two valued logic of "either/or" of comparing Black vs.
> White. 100% x or 100% y. The world is not black or white. Once
> you recognize that the world is a continuum of colors shading from
> black to white you have left Aristotelian logic behind and started
> applying Non-Aristotelian logic [null-a for short]. An important
> null-a tool is the continuum. [I have whole essay's on this topic if
> your interested.]
> The world is not filled with 100% static Quality or 100% Dynamic
> Quality. Nothing is 100%. Everything is a continuum of static -
> dynamic. Just consider any object and you will realize it has
> static-dynamic Quality running through, it all depends on what level
> of the holoarchy you analyze it from. I am as a whole unit a static
> pattern, but inside my heart and lungs are pumping away dynamically.
> I am made up of atoms and quarks which are quantum mechanically
> dynamic. Overtime this static me will reveal its dynamic attributes
> by getting old and dying. 100% static and 100% dynamic are abstract
> ideas, non existent in reality!
OK this is MOQ-speak and I buy it.
> Don't just use Pirsig. He has a lot of tools but he is not the be
> all and the end all of human thought and intellect. He is a genius
> and an important tool maker. But check out Wilber he has a whole
> lot of useful tools. Wilber's Spirit/Mind is Pirsig's Quality! It
> is just that Wilber, not having read Pirsig, doesn't have Pirsig's
> tools to make that realization. To understand reality you need the
> tools of Einstein, Quantum physics, and a whole lot more. You can't
> even fix a motorcycle if you only have the tools Pirsig gave you.
> You will be a better motorcycle mechanic if you have Pirsig's tools
> but you also need a good book on motorcycle maintenance!
Well, perhaps Wilber's SpiritMind is identical to Pirsig's Qualit,
but where does he go on to speak of a Dynamic/Static SM divide, and
then of a Static SM hierarchy? I am no expert on Wilber (only have
his "Up from Eden"), but those more versed on him says NOWHERE!
And
the MOQ hinges on the DQ/SQ split .....it hinges on the first
Quality=Reality postulate too, but that one I guess you already have
bought ...or?
> Gary Jaron "People shape, and are shaped by, ideas."
Agree!.
As said Gary, I am deeply and truly impressed by your essay.
Particularly with the observation that the diagram that the narrator
draws may not correspond fully with the one that Phaedrus describes. I
don't necessarily agree with your revision (if I got it reorganized
correctly?), but the sheer power of your analysis thrilled me. Now,
if you could get the diagrams sorted out so we can be sure of how you
see them, I will return to it.
Bo
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