Hi David,
You posted this list:
Language at the social level______VS______Language-derived intellectual
level
thinking..................................philosophizing
understanding.............................epistemology
myth making...............................comparative mythology
writing a poem............................literary deconstruction
religious doctrines.......................comparative religious studies
speaking a language.......................linguistic analysis
party politics............................political science
counting and accounting...................algebra and calculus
reading a newspaper.......................media analysis
> Gary's response:
> Wow, I agree with Platt. But I just realized that I had read David's list
> thinking it was saying the exact opposite. I somehow thought that the
left
> hand was the Intellectual (individual process) Level and the right hand
list
> was the Social (collective process) Level. Therefore: David please help.
> Did you really mean to post that
> Thinking was Social and philosophizing was Intellectual Level? I hope
not.
> I hope you just goofed and typed the labels backward. Please, please tell
> us that was what happen.
>
> DMB says: Sorry to dash your hopes, but no. I did not mix up the labels.
Gary's new response: Damn. I was so hoping for you not to tell me what you
just did. Okay, now I do understand why you find my definition of 3rd level
as 'Internal , individual' and 4th level as 'external , communal' as
confusing. Wow. Where to begin? let's start with "reading a newspaper".
Let me describe the following to illustrate this and thus to point out the 4
levels of MOQ as I understand them:
You David are sitting in your house holding a newspaper and after some time
passes you turn the pages of that newspaper. I am outside looking through
your window and observing you. I continue to watch and you continue to look
at the newspaper until you have looked at the whole thing and put it down
and leave the room.
Here's my analysis of the above:
1st level: me, you , the house, the newspaper, the chair you were sitting
on, the ground I was standing on, the air we were all breathing, etc. This
is all the stuff of subatomic, atomic and on up level stuff. All of this
level is real and exist before any of the human words can be use to describe
them. This is non-verbal, pre-human culturally labeled, External,
Objective Reality. Atoms are not the word used to describe them but
patterns of Quality. All this is first level stuff and the human tool of
Physics tries to understand what is going on here at this 1st level of
stable patterns of Reality.
2nd level. David and me. We are organic patterns of Reality. We are the
results of millions of years of Dynamic -- Static evolution of patterns of
organic Reality. We have hearts and lungs and brains. Here on this level
the human tool of Biology tries to understand what is going on.
4th level: David you are reading. Your act of deciphering the words on the
newspaper is taking place internally within your experience. You are
internally 'hearing' the words of the newspaper. You are 'thinking' about
those words. This is all done [assuming you do not read to yourself out
loud.] silently. It is a private experience within your internal 4th
level. I am watching you and trying to understand what I am observing.
This is what is going on at my 4th level. My act of comprehending what I am
seeing is my internal, private, silent experience. It is my 4th level
activity.
3rd level: The interaction of me observing you can be described at this
level. Why am I there? Am I breaking any laws of the human culture that we
belong to, such as 'trespassing, 'invasion of your privacy' , 'acting as a
peeping Tom'? All of these questions are describing my actions on this
human cultural and public, communal, collective level. The newspaper, the
house, the chair are presumably all products that David purchased. The act
of purchasing is a social interaction. The idea that David can purchase and
own those objects are a social level construct. The language the words on
the newspaper is written in is a human cultural collective invention.
That is how I understand MOQ and Reality. For the most part, your list
above and the labels you apply to me is backwards. In general all the left
hand side of the list are activates of an individual while the right hand
side of the list are the collective analysis of those left hand activities.
Which is why I thought the left was 3rd level and the right was 4th level.
Let's stick with my little "David reading a newspaper and Gary observing
David" illustration as a way to resolve your list and hopefully to clarify
what is 3rd level and what is 4th level. How about that?
Gary
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