On Sunday, June 9, 2002, at 02:39 PM, Gary Jaron wrote:
> Hello all,
> Gavin gee-clough said:
>
>> the division between the social and intellectual levels seems closely
>> related to (self) consciousness. i think that julian jaynes' stuff on
>> the
>> origin of consciousness parallels pirsig's work quite closely.
>> i know this is old stuff so tell me why this isn't the clearest way of
>> looking at it?
>
> Gary's response: I've been reading all these posts that are trying to
> wrestle with the division of Pirsig's 3rd and 4th levels. I am using
> this
> post to as "the clearest way of looking at it" the social and
> intellectual
> levels and the clearest way to present the problem and the solution.
> The
> problem is Pirsig's map. He sets out that his levels are based in
> evolution. That works for Inorganic on up to Organic. But to take
> that the
> stance intellect evolved out of the social is false. The two were born
> on
> the same day, at the same instance. Once the biology had evolved to
> that
> critical threshold the intellect level was created and the first social
> act
> was performed, thus creating the social level. The two are
> evolutionarily
> inseparable. Pirsig is wrong.
Good point.
Possible conclusion #1: Pirsig is wrong.
Possible conclusion #2: MoQ posts that talk about social are talking
about human social patterns of value. And what makes human social
patterns of value human is the mediation of intellect and intellectual
patterns.
We can't observe any pristine social patterns, because "we" are
contained in intellect. If we observe them, they have been mediated by
our observation, which changes both the observer and the observed.
However, we can deduce them from the animal world, from history, and
from observation of our own layers of types of behavior that function in
more primitive ways, even though these behaviors have since been pulled
into control by intellectual patterns of value.
cheers,
maggie
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