Hi Bo and all,
----- Original Message -----
From: <skutvik@online.no>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: MD What is SOM?
> On 23 Jun 2002 at 17:59, Patrick v.d. Berg wrote:
>
> > Reoccuring words in this forum are 'sq', 'DQ' and 'SOM'. There is a
> > tendency here to put forward some argument, and then classify it as
> > belonging to one of these categories, which then is followed simply by a
> > '.': no further explanation needed. I read here in some posts that
things
> > can be real independently of our consciousness. That makes me
> > wondering about what SOM means.
>
> Patrick and Groupniks
> I am still on my vacation trip, but got a chance to download some MD mail
at a stop, among
> those your question "What is SOM" ..... and a few answers to it. I would
have liked to
> evaluate them all (to act my role as an censor ) but a great numbness
descended. It's like
> this discussion carries us further and further away from understanding the
Metaphysics of
> Quality and how it takes leave of anything previously conceived of. Is
really SOM a mystery
> after you having read LILA?
>
> > The MoQ is not a SOM philosophy. But is it?
>
> Phew! Is General Relativity a Newtonian "philosophy"? No and a little yes!
The MOQ makes
> the S/O metaphysics part of itself, the same way that any greater system
subsumes the old.
> General Relativity "contains" Newtonian physics as a sub-set within
itself, good enough for
> calculating moon landings and sattelite orbits, but unable to handle
things at extreme
> conditions. Likewise: looking at reality from Intellect is good enough for
all practical
> purposes, but a moqist KNOWS better.
>
> But this is dependent upon accepting my SOL idea that SOM=Q-intellect.
GARY'S RESPONSE: I still do not get why we need SOLAQI? I've read and
re-read Dan Glover's essay on SOLAQI many many times. SOM is not Quality
Intellect. Subject Object Metaphysics is a normal and natural human made
map/theory/construct which arises out of the nature of Western linguistic
grammar/structure and Aristotealian Logic. It is not inherent in the nature
of or the structure of the human mind/Pirsig's 4th level Intelect. But all
of this is for another thread of discussion.
>
> > If biological and inorganic
> > patterns are real but not conscious, should we not say that these
> > patterns are objectively real; since they can exist by themselves,
> > without a consciousness to shine upon them needed?
>
> Yes, the Matter+Life =Object, Society+Intellect=Subject is a way of
subsuming the SOM
> (another is the said SOL idea), but nowhere in LILA does Pirsig speak
about
> "consciousness" as any "continental divide". OK you are now off on
vacation so let's
> postpone the consciousness issue until later.
GARY'S RESPONSE: I agree with Bo. Everything is 'objectively real' if it is
a stable pattern of Inorganic Quality [sub-atomic particles on up to atomic
particles on up to molecules on up to...] stable patterns of Organic Quality
[all plants and all animals, which includes us.].
> > Instead of two words "subject-object" we have five
> > "inorganic-organic-biological-social-intellectual" (I believe these are
> > the levels: I never was good in them)... but no essential difference
> > between these two perspective; it lies only in the jargon that's being
> > used.
>
> Why start discussing with such a weak understanding, not even knowing that
"biological" is
> another word for "organic"? Well, who am I to scold anyone, the MDiscuss
is an open forum
> and we have let the MFocus go to the dogs. Yet people should wait until
they are out of
> (MOQ) kindergarten.
>
> > Here is a question then: Define in a few sentences what YOU mean by
> > subject-object-metaphysics.
> > (To try to explain the intuitive simple can be illuminating. It happened
> > to me just a few days ago when I explained 'reductionism' to my father).
>
> In the meantime I join Squonk's:
>
> > Physics deals with reality. Metaphysics deals with where reality came
from.
>
> Agree! The scope of a metaphysics is enormous, the SOM is an enormity and
the MOQ will
> become one.
>
> See you at the next stop.
> Bo
>
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