Hi Platt, and all,
Returning to the internal/external issue. Though it is not the first place
from which to understand how Reality is created, Quality to DQ & SQ is, it
is an important viewpoint. See below.
----- Original Message -----
From: Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
> Hi Bo, Scott, Gary, All:
>
> SCOTT (to Gary):
> > In my opinion, you are denying the MOQ. Specifically, Pirsig adopts >as
the
> > primary distinction that into DQ and sq. He then categorizes sq into
four
> > levels, inorganic, biological, social, and intellectual, each level
> > developing out of the previous, thanks to DQ. Note that there is no
> > division into internal and external reality. He then says that what we
> > commonly call subjective can be identified as the social and
intellectual
> > levels, and objective the other two. Again, no division into internal
and
> > external reality. just a definition of two words. In traditional terms,
no
> > mind/matter division.
>
> I agree with Bo that Scott has beautifully expressed one of the central
> principles of the MOQ, namely, "There is no division into internal and
> external reality." This, of course, is anathema to the science faithful.
> Anyone in the scientific community expressing such a belief would be
> promptly excommunicated--a victim of the "no infidels allowed effect."
> The sinner would join those who hint at a possible supernatural force at
> work in the universe.
>
> No wonder society is in trouble. Values verboten.
>
> Platt
GARY'S REPONSE: Hi Platt,
It is inaccurate to say "There is NO division into internal and external
reality." There obviously does exist such a division and Pirsig recognizes
it , even if some others want to pretend that it does not exist.
Though 3wd helped out and clarified my position and then I
posted my response also on this issue, I wanted to revisit it one more time.
Pirsig recognizes this division. He just does not make it primary for his
way of viewing reality. From the perspective of what created reality the
internal/external divide is not the starting point, Quality is and the
aspects of Dynamic and Static nature of Quality.
But once the whole thing has been created. Once we humans existed and have
the culture that we have since our point in cultural history,
post-enlightenment or post-scientific perspective, however you want to call
it, then the internal and external is a valid means to map out the nature of
human reality. Pirsig has the internal aspect of reality it is called
"Intellect" the 4th level of his stable patterns of Quality. Where is
Intellect to be found? [One joking answering could be : You certainly won't
find it in Washington D.C.] If by where you are restricted to external
places then Intellect will never be found. Pirsig's Intellect level exists
as the internal experience of a human being! Thus the Internal--external
divide.
What follows is from my first essay, which is a long analysis of this
divide from Pirsig's own book: Zen and the Art.
--------------------------------
Now lets look at the 'New' metaphysics of Robert Pirsig, he the champion of
Quality, he the unifier of all that is Good, True and Beautiful. [Note: I
tried once before to draw Pirsig's map in email and it gets all messed up.
So although visually what is below is not the same, the information is
hopefully conveyed in a manner similar to Pirsig's map but in a way that the
email systems won't distort.]
Quality(Reality)=>Romantic Quality & Classic Quality
Classic Quality =>Intellectual Reality
Intellectual Reality =>Subjective Reality & Objective Reality
Subjective Reality=>(Mind)
Objective Reality=>(Matter)
But, most shocking of all, upon my current re-reading of Pirsig's book,
probably my 6th or 7th read of it, I had my own revelation! The diagram
Pirsig presented was not an accurate picture of his own words! It was as if
the diagram was laid out by the Narrator and not by Phaedrus the philosopher
who had the revelation concerning Quality. Return with me to chapter 20 of
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Go to what is page 247 in the
Quill edition, the paragraph begins thusly:
'He'd been speculating about the relationship of Quality to mind and matter
and had identified Quality as the parent of mind and matter, that event
which gives birth to mind and matter. This Copernican inversion of the
relationship of Quality to the objective world could sound mysterious if not
carefully explained, but he didn't mean to be mysterious. He simply meant
that at the cutting edge of time, before an object can be distinguished,
there must be a kind of nonintellectual awareness, which he called awareness
of Quality. You can't be aware that you've seen a tree until after you've
seen the tree, and between the instant of vision and instant of awareness
there must be a time lag..The past exists only in our memories, the future
only in our plans. The present is our only reality. The tree that you are
aware of intellectually, because of that small time lag, is always in the
past and therefore is always unreal. Any intellectually conceived object is
always in the past and therefore unreal. Reality is always the moment of
vision before the intellectualization takes place. There is no other
reality. This preintellectual reality is what Phaedrus felt he had properly
defined as Quality. Since all intellectual identifiable things must emerge
from this preintellectual reality, Quality is the parent, the source of all
subjects and objects.'
Powerful words. But let us carefully consider them. The scene that Pirsig
is describing consists of a person observing a tree. So, first off there
exists matter! A human being stands on planet Earth and a tree grows out of
the soil of planet Earth. Examine the word 'preintellectual'. Watch were
it takes us. Pre-intellectual means something before there is an
intellectual understanding. The intellect is a faculty of a human mind!
Pre-intellectual is before the things the mind creates, which is words.
Before intellect there is a non-verbal occurrence. We now have a body which
has sense data, non-verbal, and this body process the sense data with its
intellect--its mind. Out of this processing we have understanding. Pirsig
labels Preintellectual with Romantic Quality and intellectual with Classical
Quality. The actual diagram Pirsig is describing looks more like this:
Quality
(Objective Reality)
Matter
(Planet Earth)
(trees and people)
a human mind
(Subjective Reality)
Romantic Quality
(preintellectual awareness)
Classic Quality
(intellectual distinguishing
identifiable things)
Now this visual edifice is solid and stable. But this is not the diagram
that Pirsig gave in his book! But it is the diagram as described by the
paragraph from his book that I just cited! Quality exists before words,
before intellect. We are made of matter and perceive things made of matter
(trees). We silently, non-verbally are aware of, experience objects made of
matter and then we come to understand those objects and give them labels,
words. This labeling is Classic Quality which we make in our intellect--our
mind! Classic Quality is a product of a human mind! Romantic Quality is
the silent appreciation and experience of matter by a human being with a
mind! That is exactly what Pirsig is saying in the paragraph I quoted.
Wow.
Then if we examine Chapter 24 and the Train metaphor it reinforces the
re-worked Pirsig map just laid out above. Pirsig begins this metaphor by
calling the Train traveling across the prairies the train of knowledge,
which he subdivides into Classical and Romantic Knowledge. At first it
appears that he has acknowledged that the human mind can classify it's
understanding of Reality into a division of two worldviews and that the cars
in this train are filled with Romantic stuff and Classical stuff. But, this
is not the case. 'Classic Knowledge, the knowledge taught by the Church of
Reason, is the engine and all the boxcars. All of them and everything that'
is in them. If you subdivide the train into parts you will find no Romantic
Knowledge anywhere.' [ZMM, pg. 283.] This is odd, so where is Romantic
Quality?
I know it exists , it is found in 'hip-ness', it is the emotional response
to somethings appearance, it is the recognition of the Beautiful, it is
seeing the world through the eye of Art and beauty. But Pirsig says
'Romantic Quality, in terms of this analogy, isn't any 'part' of the train.
It's the leading edge of the engine.'[ZMM, pg. 283] Hmm, this is odd. Yes
there is a leading edge, yes that leading edge is before words, pre-verbal
and thus 'pre-intellectual'. But, is this really Romantic Quality?
'It's the leading edge of the train of knowledge that keeps the whole train
on track. Traditional knowledge is only the collective memory of where that
leading edge has been. At the leading edge there are no subject, no
objects, only the track of Quality ahead, and if you have no formal way of
evaluating, no way of acknowledging this Quality , then the entire train has
no way of knowing where to go.The cutting edge of this instant right here
and now is always nothing less than the totality of everything there is.
Value, the leading edge of reality, is no longer an irrelevant offshoot of
structure. Value is the predecessor of structure. It's the
pre-intellectual awareness that gives rise to it. Our structured reality is
preselected on the basis of value, and really to understand structured
reality requires an understanding of the value source from which it's
derived.' [ZMM, pg 283-4]
Yes. That cutting edge is the contact with Quality. Our prior
understanding of what Quality is, the contents of the train helps guide us
in where we are going and what we will comprehend out of that encounter with
the unknown at the point of the leading edge. Quality guides us, but is it
Romantic Quality? I think that Pirsig realizes that there is
pre-intellectual experience and intellectual experience but he also
acknowledging that there is pre-intellectual understanding of a thing and of
Quality, and that there is intellectual understanding of a thing and of
Quality. Pirsig is combining experience with understanding. I believe they
are two separate constructs. Experience is an event and term to describe
the process of encountering Reality and therefore encountering Quality.
Understanding is what we do after the encounter. It is the results of the
encounter.
Thus, Classic Quality and Romantic Quality are useful terms to describe our
appreciation of, our understanding of Reality. They describe the
understanding of Reality and the results into knowledge. I would put
Romantic Quality back into the train, and make some of the box cars Romantic
Quality. Now, it is true that Romantic Quality appreciates the surface
value of events and things and thus is not Classically intellectual.
Romantic Quality draws more heavily from the emotions as to feeling its way
into understanding. Things either feel right or wrong using the Romantic
perspective. Emotions, as I believe and as I will explain, are prior to
intellectual constructs and that is why I believe Pirsig linked
pre-intellectuality with all things Romantic. But by mixing experience with
understanding he took Romantic Quality understanding and left if out of the
box cars of knowledge. I think we should put it back.
One last thing. If the box cars are the sum total of our knowledge, which I
have now described as being Classic and Romantic, what is the engine? That
I believe is the human mind.
So, what is this pre-intellectual experience, this leading edge of the
train? It is most definitely an encounter with Quality.
'Quality is not a thing. It is an event. Warmer. It is the event at which
the subject becomes aware of the object. And because without objects there
can be no subject--because the objects create the subject's awareness of
himself--Quality is the event at which awareness of both subjects and
objects is made possible. Hot.This means Quality is not just the result of
a collision between subject and object. The very existence of subject and
object themselves is deduced from the Quality event. The Quality event is
the cause of the subjects and objects. [ZMM, pg. 239] Absolutely! The
encounter with Quality, the Quality event that is the leading edge of the
Train of knowledge! It is not Romantic Quality. The leading edge is the
time and place where the subject and object meet.
Now we have one final map from ZMM. Everything is properly classified and
both Classic and Romantic Quality has been satisfied.
QUALITY
[External Reality aka =Objective Reality]
Matter
(Planet Earth)
(trees and people)
QUALITY EVENT
a human mind
[Internal Reality =aka Subjective Reality)
(preintellectual experience & awareness)
(intellectual distinguishing
and understanding identifiable things)
Romantic Quality -- Classic Quality
As you can see the seeds of the Lila map of MOQ are there.
Matter is Organic and Inorganic stable patterns of Quality
and the pre-intellectual and the Intellectual understanding will become the
4th level of stable patterns of Quality that Pirsig labels "Intellect" in
Lila.
Hence there is external and Internal reality. It is that Lila is all about
getting us to recognize Ethics and thus the map of MOQ is made to focus on
that perspective. Internal and External is relevant not for ethics but for
a map that whose focus is on the hows and whys we come to have knowledge.
The mind/matter division is not a ethically relevant division. It is a
relevant division in discussing the nature of obtaining knowledge concerning
Reality/Quality.
Hoping to bring clarity,
Gary
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