Gary,
I think I see your goal now. You might be interested by my thoughts in
the Map/Territory Thread posted 8.24.2002. Perhaps that will offer some
insight towards the "tolerance and humility" that you mentioned. A
worthy goal. Personally, it's that view (and recognizing my own
egotistical Dogma traps) that has been greatest message I've realized
from MOQ so far.
As to understanding "how" we believe in menus, I suspect that is a
personal journey for each to embark on in regards to our own Static
Patterns and rationalizations. In the sciences, perhaps psychology is
most concerned with this. As we order our universe for oursevles, we
assume the static patterns and rationalizations that explain our
experience to us most effectively. The patterns build on each other in
layers. If these layers become rigid, they can effectively color
experience so that only Data that fits our rigid patterns is collected,
reinforcing the rigid patterns, blocking us from a different POV. For
example, the rational empiricist rejects experience outside the
measurable materialism of the universe he chooses for himself. The
mystic senses Data that attributes meaning to the material universe.
Both are concerned with making order from chaos, but both approach the
task with a different measuring instrument and collect different Data.
Why do we believe? Pragmatically it could be stated that we accept the
'truths' that describe/predict as much of experience as accruately as
possible. We need Order. We need the static patterns to cope with the
Conceptually Unknown. Perhaps there can be no 'self' without such
definitions/boudaries. To abandon the need to define our universe and
our place in it, is to abandon reality (little 'r'). There is a
tradition of mystics in most cultures, those who reject the material
universe and enter a state of perpetual comtemplation to abandon the
self and attain Unification/Enlightenment/Nirvana/Bliss whatever we want
to label as Oneness with Dynamic Qaulity/Immediacy/Absolute
Mind/God/Creation. To some, this is the definition of madness.
Existential Angst is the pain of realization of the Conceptually
Unknown. That chaos that seems to exist outside of our carefully
constructed reality. We seek an end to that Angst.
Is it necessary? Arguably, no. Why ask why seems to be the dominant
reaction of most modern individuals. You live, you die, why sweat the
details? Within the tiny realm of what is knowable, such a pursuit can
easily be considered without function or use (beyond our own comfort and
sanity). It's definitely a Leisure pursuit for those of us not bound to
a subsistance lifestyle. In practical terms, any aspect of our psyche or
self-constructed universe that doesn't adversely affect reproduction is
going to survive through generations. It might be the meaningless
baggage of a modern surplus socio-economic reality. Having the baggage
(our why questions, our search for meaning) isn't proof of their value
or 'truthfulness'.
-Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of Gary Jaron
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:34 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
Hi Kevin,
Actually my zeal is not all that new, it's been around with me for a
long time. Hence some of my past posts, a little too much zeal and not
enough calm clarity.
I am most interested in all of those tasks you state. I believe that
understanding the formation of how we make those menus and how we come
to believe in the menus we do will lead to a comprehensive menu that
would "open confrontation of menus to explode the static reality that
they represent?" My ideas and this search would not necessarily be
toward a "Deeper Fundamental Reality that the MOQ points us to?" I
believe we need to use the MOQ and many other ideas and research. But I
do not wish to go toward the Fundamental Reality that Pirsig and others
strive towards and after. I am not certain I can, or if there will be
any certain will come out of this goal. I think some clarity can be
made in understanding how and why we believe what we do. This process
can be made clear. A smaller goal with direct applications towards
tolerance of other views and a sense of humility we all could use.
Tolerance and humility are goals I strive for but often come up short,
Gary
---- Original Message -----
From: Kevin <kevin@xap.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: MD Consciousness
> Gary,
>
> I'm curious about your "windmills" before I can discuss the
> method/madness of charging them. I understand your passion regarding
> menus and the danger they can represent in fragmenting society and
> creating ideological enemies.
>
> To clarify your newfound zeal, are you interesting in fathoming the
> formation of menus? Or rather, in formulating a comprehensive menu
> that would include all others for the sake of unity? Or are you
> interesting in finding the best method for leading resturant patrons
> to see beyond the menus to the Deeper Fundamental Reality that the MOQ
> points us to? Or yet still, the open confrontation of menus to explode
> the static reality that they represent?
>
> I'm just curious where you're going with this. I spent a lot of time
> on each of those roads so perhaps I can lend my experience once I know
> where you're at.
>
> Curious and respectful,
>
> -Kevin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of Gary Jaron
> Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:24 AM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Consciousness
>
>
> Hi Platt, Scott, Bo, John and all,
>
> In 1799 at "Rosetta" [Rashid] Egypt a stone stella was found that
> contained three passages carved on that stone. The passages were in
> Egyptian Hieroglyphics, a later style of Egyptian writing called
> Demotic and Greek. It was only in 1821 that J. F. Champollion was able
> to unlock the relationships between the three languages and thus able
> to translate Egyptian Hieroglyphics, which were prior to his work
> indecipherable to the modern western culture. I feel like
> Champollion. Platt's post of Friday August 23 on this thread is my
> Rosetta stone. Using it I hope to articulate in a way that can be
> understood by you all, hence to explain and make clear what I have
> been babbling on about.
>
> Platt pointed out Pirsig's restaurant metaphor: "Metaphysics is not
> reality. Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a
> restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu and no
> food." [Lila, chapter 5, pg.63 in the Bantam 1991 trade paper back
> edition]. I have been fascinated with the menu and not the food. Why
> bother with the menu, you may well ask. The importance of the menu
> lies in the fact that there are so many different menus! Italian,
> Chinese, Mexican, Russian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Scientific
> Materialism, Roman Catholic Christianity, Mormonism, etc. Each human
> culture has written its own menu. Human's have written hundred's of
> theological and philosophic menus. People have been killed because
> they did not believe in the majority culture's menu! Hitler's
> Holocaust, Russia's pogrom's, Roman Catholics Inquisition and it's
> Crusades, Islamic Jihads, Stalin's purges, McCarthy's spawned Red
> Scare, etc, all of these are examples of some group imposing its menu
> on the fate of disbelievers. Menu's are very important. People's life
> and liberties are at stake.
>
> So, why are there so many menus? This is another way to phrase the
> question that is behind my writings. I believe that if we could
> uncover how and why we come to believe in the menus that we do, this
> knowledge can used as a tool and a weapon. A way to free us from the
> destructive use of those menus. It can be used as a means to destroy
> the certainty that gives rise to the fanatical use of those menus. I
> hope that I can eliminate the belief in the certainty of an
> individual menu. Out of this newly forced uncertainty upon the True
> Believer their will result in humility and tolerance.
>
> A fool's errand? A misguided perception? Perhaps. A biographical
> aside: When I came upon the play "The Man of Lamancha" by Dale
> Wasserman, Joe Darion and Mitch Leigh, it was a relgious moment. Don
> Quixote became one of my patron saints hence forth. In that play are
> these lines spoken by
> Cervantes: "I have been a soldier and seen my comrades fall in
> battle...or die more slowly under the lash in Africa. I have held
> them in my arms at the final moment. These were men who saw life as
> it is, yet they died despairing. No glory, no gallant last words,
> only their eyes filled with confussion, whimpering the question:
> "Why?" I do not think they asked why they were dying, but why they
> had lived. When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness
> lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender
> dreams--this may be madness. To seek treasure where there is only
> trash. Too much sanity may be madness. And maddest of all, to see
> life as it is and not as it should be!" I have taken up Quixote's
> sword and have become a dreamer, a fellow knight errant of LaMancha.
>
> That is my quest. To be able to find and make a meta-metaphysics that
> will explain how a person comes to acquire knowledge, belief and
> value. To make such a system that is understandable to any and all
> cultures is an enormous task. To big for any one person. So, to
> start on that task I want to make a system that can handle the Western
> world views. I do not know enough to tackle non-Western cultures and
> beliefs. Though in principle the system should be able to be applied
> to non-Western cultures.
>
> Those my positing so long ago in one of my essay's that the Universe
> was fundamentally ''matter/energy". It seemed an important starting
> point for a Western perspective. I was trying to describe a meta-menu
> and not to describe the food. Trying to build a means to explain in
> Western world view terms how menu's were made and how and why we come
> to believe in their certainty.
>
> Okay, I have not directly responded to anyone's prior posts. But I
> think that this post will have made my position more understandable
> and hence brought some clarity.
>
> All these long series of posts and the challenges raised against what
> I have been writing about have helped me to see clearly what I have
> been doing and what I need to do. I think in the end I will be still
> be re-shuffling Pirsig's MOQ map. Not because I disagree with how it
> describes the food but because it feel [based upon my sense of
> Quality] that it doesn't describe the process of how those menus came
> into being! I am not sure at this moment what will be the outcome.
>
> Bo raised a point in some prior post complaining about how so many of
> us, after reading some author come back and try to re-work Pirsig
> based on that author's ideas. I believe it has something to do with
> the fact that we are map makers and map users. We perhaps have a Will
> to Meaning, similar to Nietzsche's concept of a Will to Power.
> Meaning is another synonym for Quality. Which is how and why I came
> to Pirsig. Our Will towards Quality drives us on to figure things out.
> To make sense of things in accordance with our menus/our beliefs. The
> pull and push of the Dynamic and the Static within us motivates us to
> Dynamically seek out the new and Statically take that in an use it.
> So long as we are open to the Dynamic we will keep on seeking out new
> life and new civilizations, to keep boldly going where we have not
> been before.
>
> Amongst my many "personality disorders", I am a Star Trek fan, Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
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