Hi John B:
You wrote:
> So my perception of the issue facing us as human beings is that of
> minimising suffering through attending to what is, focusing on our
> experience, including pain. This is initially a difficult task, since the
> ego warps experience, and we need to find a way to cleanse the doors of
> perception. ("If the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would
> appear to man as it is, infinite." William Blake) I do not think that the
> MOQ greatly assists this process.
> Likewise a mystic such as Ali does not deny pain, for example, or "you and
> your actions", but asserts that enlightenment is "to quit struggling with
> ourselves and with reality". Finding the basic trust to just be with
> reality, rather than constantly attempting to change it, is the mystic
> path. At this point in my life I am more interested in exploring this
> possibility than in interminably debating the MOQ.
> So even if Wim and Scott are correct, I don't find that helpful. I have
> used the map/terrain metaphor a lot, and don't have a problem with that.
> Likewise, I recognise it has limits, especially if we take the terrain to
> mean a world as explained by twentieth century science, which all too often
> is what we mean. But saying that all is quality, experience of value, is
> also just words about what is, and ultimately no more helpful than any
> metaphysics. The emptiness at the heart of such a view appals me.
> If all is quality, is value, then nothing is changed, resolved, or
> clarified. A rose is a rose is a rose, as the saying goes. The initial
> attraction of Pirsig's work was his claim that understanding the MOQ
> resulted in useful clarification of our moral options in the world. This
> has proven a chimera, but it pointed in a valid direction. The formal
> metaphysical position of deleting persons, or recognising them as just some
> sort of evolutionary value constellation, in constant flux, is fine so long
> as you ignore suffering. But I would argue that suffering is a fundamental
> experience for human beings, and a metaphysics is no solution. 'Valuism' is
> ultimately a nihilism.
> I shall probably take a break from this forum, since even though I enjoy
> the intellectual jousting and the opportunity it has given me to refine and
> clarify my own thoughts, I no longer find this important enough to be
> satisfying. Thanks for the engagement and the debates.
First, I hope you continue to give us the benefit of your thoughts. I find
them very valuable indeed. Second, your lament concerning the state of
modern man appears to be very similar to that expressed by Pirsig in
Chap.22 where he describes the flashing sign pointing to Paradise. He
sums up mankind's "pain" like this:
"Sometime after the twenties a secret loneliness, so penetrating and so
encompassing that we are only beginning to realize the extent of it,
descended upon the land. This scientific, psychiatric isolation and
futility had become a far worse prison of the spirit than the old Victorian
"virtue" ever was."
While I agree that Pirsig offers no specific way out of our spiritual
prison, he does suggest that we can gain fuller understanding of what is
going on around us by viewing experience through the prism of the MOQ
rather than SOM. By implication, the more we are aware, the greater
our freedom; the more we are free, the greater the relief from suffering.
"Valuism" may not be a complete answer, but it's giant leap forward
from "scientism."
In any case, I'd suggest that Christianity as a moral system is as much
a chimera as any metaphysics, but that doesn't mean it's worthless by
any means as the broad appeal of caring and compassion demonstrate.
Hope you'll stay with us, John. I for one am very interested in learning
what you learn as you pursue your goal of greater "immediacy." As you
know, I find it in the pursuit of beauty. In fact, my daughter and I are
planning a "beauty trip" to the Southwestern part of the U.S. this Fall.
Platt
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