Erin,
What I object to in the phrase is its implied nominalism, that words and
ideas are "mere" words and ideas, while the territory is somehow
independent of words and ideas. Here's Kuhlewind:
"Nominalism assumes that thinking is identical with words, that there is
no thinking without words. Nominalism forgets that words receive their
meaning from and through thinking, and does not see that this
*something*, to which a word refers, must already be *that*. To get a
name, a thing must first be an "idea". The belief that anything could
exist without an idea is anti-Logos....Naivete is the common trait of
all diseases of consciousness out of which have arisen both the dogma
that there can be a reality without cognition and the doctrine of a
spirit which one cannot know [agnosticism]."
Paticular words can of course be changed and swapped out, so it is
possible to translate between languages, and languages can change. So
when you ask "Unless you don't swallow that int & soc is subjective and
bio and inorganic is objective?", my answer is yes, I do swallow it, and
admire Pirsig's coup in devaluing the words "subjective" and
"objective". In SOM, of course, they are central. In the MOQ they are
just labels for two sets of sq, one that we know through perception, the
other through conception.
But this sounds a lot like the internal/external. First, I do not
consider the internal/external distinction an illusion. It is, as you
note, presumed in most all of our daily preoccupation. On the other
hand, the distinction is not fixed. Before the rise of the intellectual
level (according to my version of the MOQ), the internal did not exist,
or at least did not exist in the way it does to us. That is, concepts
also came "from outside". And, in mystical Awakening, by most accounts,
the internal/external divide is transcended. So for *metaphysics*
(assuming one agrees with all this), it is important to do as Pirsig did.
One last point (before Bo beats me to it :). The subject/object divide,
though temporary, is a necessary transition step, between what Barfield
calls "original participation" and "final participation". It is an
essential step in the development of self-consciousness, but it is not
the last step.
- Scott
Erin Noonan wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> I am a little trigger happy about deleting emails and with
> the archives not updated I can't pull up your email again.
> So I am just going to respond to it from memory.
> I chewed on your idea about eating menus for awhile and not only
> did I swallow it but it left a good aftertaste.
> Okay enough corny puns. Seriously I liked it but I don't know why it goes
> against "map is not the territory".
> Unless you don't swallow that int & soc is subjective and
> bio and inorganic is objective?
> I like it as a metaphor but it seems like it leads to
> something like "eating an idea and thining about an apple" which
> sounds silly. I think I like the idea that maps and territories
> as metaphors for each other.
> You are what you eat and what you think.
>
> I would be interested in exploring at how this relates to
> how you think the internal/external as illusionary.
>
> eating an apple--destroying the apple (external) but creating
> internal energy
>
> wilderness of ideas---thinking seems to be hacking out this wilderness
> at the same time building internal mental energy
>
> interesting sidenote: the idea of swallowing spit in your mouth
> doesn't gross people out but the idea of spitting out the spit in a
> cup and then swallowing it does gross people out
>
> I can see how you wouldn't like the map is not the territory
> if you don't believe in a internal/external divide but
> I find myself wishy washy about rejecting the internal/external
> divide. It may be an illusion but if you want to function it is
> really hard to leave it.
>
>
> erin
>
>
>
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