I see a lot of Value in this topic, but I'd like to make some simple
suggestions to perhaps steer the conversation.
Platt said:
It might be interesting to explain in terms of the MOQ the demise of the
Arabic culture after 1300 and the rise of the West. It appears the West
lifted itself into the intellectual level while Islam slipped back to
the
social. Assuming that's true, the question is why.
Kevin:
Perhaps nitpicking, but I think we should be careful about the language
we choose here. Just because the political boundaries of particular
Islamic empires receded across Europe or Asia, I wouldn't categorize
that as the "demise of Arabic culture".
I would also hesitate to describe 14th Century Europe as "Intellectual".
Certainly there were great personalities that sought to raise the level
of discourse from the oppressive Social Patterns of the time, but that
phenomenon was not unique to Western societies.
Might I respectfully suggest that it would be more Valuable to discuss
how various Intellectual Patterns emerged and why some succeeded and
others did not. It might be fair to say that said Intellectual Patterns
latched in Western culture faster or more widely or securely than in
Islamic culture of the same period. But it would be inaccurate to
suggest that there were no New Intellectual Patterns in Islamic
societies in the Middle Ages.:-)
Buff said:
In the west the religion vs. science battle ended with religion taking
such a
pounding that science (with the help of SOM) is teetering on the edge of
proving that God does not exist. In the Islamic/Muslim nations the
science
vs. religion battle did not go as well for science, it was subjugated,
but
this immoral (Intellectual POV's being 'better' intrinsically than
social
POV's)loss by science did indeed cost religion out there; in order to
win it
had to develop to such a static level that it precludes the possibility
of
Good dynamic change or more correctly slows it to such a level that it
is
relatively negligible( I know that no pattern of value can totally
preclude
dynamic change). This then is possibly the source of Platt's decline,
However the Muslim propensity toward the social level has bred some high
quality patterns of value including developing the Muslim sense of
community
to a level we in the West, to our great discredit, simply do not posses.
Kevin:
I agree very strongly with your points about the respective emphasis or
de-emphasis of Social Patterns. Islamic societies placed a value on
Hospitality that is unprecedented, AFAIK. Even in the Balkans where
Islamic society showed some of it's worst brutality, the Islamic Value
of Hospitality remains to this day among non-Muslim societies.
I also believe you've captured something in the interest of Stability.
It would be most Valuable, IMO, to consider the costs of Stability and
the Value of Stability when comparing Western and Islamic cultures.
Thomas said:
I'm afraid the difference is partly very banally explained: from
then on, the western armies defeated Muslim armies (from Austria
onwards towards the south-east - in those times the Muslim empire
reached Austria!). Later on, the west took over many Muslim countries
- southeast Asia became English/French, Indonesia Dutch, Africa was
divided etc. Thus Muslim culture was prevented from developing
any further - and Christianity was expanded... Not so nice a picture,
this.
I read this all in a fascinating article in the Times Literary
Supplement. It tries to explain (partly again!) the hostility from
Islamic cultures
towards the west. This not so much explained by wealth of lack of
it, but by cultural frustration.
Kevin:
I think you've stated something here that is of supreme importance in
this conversation. Namely, to suggest that the struggle between Social
and Intellectual Patterns in Islamic society after 1300 was a purely
internal struggle is to ignore the simple fact that they began to suffer
Military defeat. Nothing had a more dramatic impact on Islamic society's
embrace of Stability and Social Cohesion (even at the price of the
Dynamic) than losing wars. Perhaps the embrace of Stability is a direct
response to the humiliation of Military defeat and violent destruction
of their empire.
It could be argued that Islamic society (despite it's rigid Social
Patterns) was much more advanced than the Christian societies that drove
them Spain and Central Europe. The book burning at the Alhambra Library
set the causes of Science and Mathematics back immeasurably. Let's not
mistakenly assume that Military domination indicates Higher Quality.
I feel obligated to point out the fact that Radical Militant
Anti-Western strains of Islam that occupy much of our thoughts of late
are extremely young movements. Islamic societies have historically
enjoyed tremendous wealth, vibrant literature, advanced science and
reasoning (especially mathematics), and abundant art.
Some historians have even suggested that the Virulent Strains Islam that
seem to embrace so-called primitive societies (Taliban, Wahabis) are
nothing more than products of Colonialism. The rejection of Technology
because it is associated with the Colonial Oppressors rather than a
rejection of Technology for it's own merits.
With hope,
Kevin
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