From: jhmau (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed Oct 02 2002 - 18:42:00 BST
On 10/02/02 7:50 AM "Thomas" at todcoul @ konkon.koncon.nl writes:
> I agree with you. Faith has much more to do with trusting. It has
> to do with believing IN, instead of believing THAT. If I say to you,
> "I believe in you", I am not saying that I believe that you exist.
> It means I put my trust in you and that I have the trust / faith
> that you will not misuse this trust. And trusting someone is always
> a commitment - because one never can be completely sure how s.o.
> actually IS.
>
> And religious faith has much to do with this. A friend of mine (I
> am not a christian) said that he understood his faith more as a believing
> IN than a believing THAT. Although he has to assume the existence
> of God (just as we assume the existence of our friends :o), what's
> more important is that he believes IN God.
>
> And this (religious of friendshiplike) trust / faith indeed guides
> our actions and gives us inspiration & positive energy (hopefully).
>
>
> yours
> Thomas
>
> At Wednesday, 2 October 2002, you wrote:
>
> >What I'm saying is that the idea of faith is applied in a
> >completely different way and under completely different
> >circumstances than factual belief. In fact, belief isn't
> >necessarily applied at all. A belief is a mental
> >construct--a yes or no with some level of probability. One
> >can't attach a probablity to faith. It isn't a matter of
> >reaching the x% threshold of belief. Faith is a decision to
> >live in a certain way and is applied by definition. A
> >particular statement of faith isn't something that is true
> >or false but something that either guides your actions or
> >not.
IMO Moral orders exist. I dynamically sense undefined "motion" in the
inorgainc order. I dynamically sense undefined "reproduction (sex)" in the
organic order. I dynamically sense undefined "celebrity" in the social
order. At a certain point I dynamically sense undefined "vision (for lack
of a better word)" in the intellectual order. I no longer trust words, I am
certain of them. I act.
Faith is not trust. Faith is not words. Faith acts like the certainty of
the "vision" of the intellectual order, without evolution from the social
order. Words are unimportant. Revelation has to be locked into a form.
Revelation is no longer just stories. Grace, the dynamic of Faith, is
undefined. Faith can only be in the individual. Evolution from the social
order is to the intellectual order not to Faith. A Church is a closed
association of individuals.
I experience purpose and Revelation clarifies my value, not my existence nor
what I know. I can be a religion of one, but not a society of one. Society
cannot clarify my intellectual values. I evolve to the intellectual order
and know my individual living values. If I have a value to the universe it
will be unclear in the intellectual order while I live. As a member of the
social order I can experience conflicting dynamics and must still render to
Caesar what is Caesar's.
joe
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