From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Sat Oct 12 2002 - 20:12:29 BST
PART 2.
Then we have the issue of how to determine the facts in any situation. Not
only which facts are true, but also which are pertinent.
Sq: Aristotle would be proud of you. Your rhetoric is rather reminiscent of
the chairmen in ZMM. That is not a provocation, it is an apposite reminder
that valueless rationalising will not help when the essence of the problem is
a discrimination of values.
If we accept that Saddhem has biological weapons, are they really a threat to
the US? If we accept...
Sq: The social manipulation of media was explored by Nazis and continued by
the US after WWII in order to help sell commodities. That is a fact.
The MOQ does not offer much help here. Pirsig pursues his own demons...
Sq: You appear to feel that ZMM and Lila are Pirsig's way of treating
himself?
I find your implicit suggestion that Pirsig is a hyper intelligent loony
disgusting.
Are your post to this org your way of giving yourself a sense of purpose?
The diatribe you mention at the end of Ch 24 Lila? can't remember what this
is so will go and read it...
OK. Just reread it. If biological patterns threaten society then i can see no
problem with suppressing the biological pattern. Saddham is a threat but
drugs such as crack and cocaine are going to wreak havoc if not dealt with.
My friend in California tells me the most disgusting stories connected with
drugs and there social consequences. It is truly horrible.
One thing Pirsig does not doubt is that moral choices are to be made....
Sq: Pirsig is a mystic.
Many claim to be mystic but that is usually a social celebrity status move
and not easily challenged. The point about mystics is that they benefit
humanity. A mystic that does not benefit humanity is not a good mystic.
On my reading, the mystic consensus...
Sq: Your reading does not correspond with any artistic view of reality. For
art to be there has to be moral order and direction. Your view does not
correspond with empirical observation either.
The only moral good to the mystic...
Sq: Mystics of the, 'Hold on to immediacy' school cannot do that which they
wish to attempt. Immediacy is more than that trying to hold onto it and so
cannot be logically accomplished.
Having said that, there is no logical inconsistency with recognising one is
less than immediacy. It is better to use immediacy. I feel Pirsig has used
immediacy rather well? He's made my life far better than it once was for
pointing out to me that i may use immediacy also.
To the mystic all moral codes, including Pirsig's...
Sq: Being less than what is we can still remember that we are in fact less
than what is.
In this way, we can drop the ego illusion of self and open up to Dynamic
Quality. That is quite freeing.
(Our sense of isolation and loneliness, which Pirsig identifies and seems
unable to critique, stems from this same separation.)
Sq: The separation has been forced upon us and is not written in stone.
Wilber...
Sq: Dear John! You are beginning to talk rubbish i am afraid. The mystic
tradition does indeed include a view that says the mystic returns to the
market place and Pirsig is one such mystic as he himself gave permission for
Disanto and Steele to state in A Guide to ZMM.
I was wondering when you would project Wilber into your post, and you have
done so making a huge blunder.
Bodhisattva's return to the market place...
Sq: You would not be giving us the exceptionally gratifying benefit of your
illuminating insightful and wondrously sagacious offerings if it were that
you are a mystic.
For pities sake man, anything less than a mystic may benefit from help from a
good mystic.
You have said this yourself above?
I find the mystic view foreign to my temperament...
Sq: Any mystic who baffles you with alarm is trying to jolt you into seeing
that which your static patterning is blocking you from seeing. Don't take it
too seriously! That would be a dreadful mistake John, a dreadful mistake!
(Almost as big a mistake as those you make in your interpretation of the
MOQ.)
But the alternatives are equally grim...
Thanks for your time,
John B
Sq: Are you telling me you are a mystic?
All the best,
Squonk.
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