From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Oct 13 2002 - 22:38:29 BST
PACO and all:
DMB says:
A very important thing to see here is
that "institutions that have
stood the test of time" ARE social values.
Traditionally, the church, the
army, and the ecomony are the favorites of
Conservatives precisely because
modernity (intellect) has had an enormous impact on
these institutions.
PACO:
We ARE discussing political patterns, so I fail to see
that this observation is as inciteful as you seem to
imply. Economic and social equality -- liberal
favorites -- are social too. The whole big C little c
thing is indeed a bit confusing. Both the C and the L
words -- even if focused on political ideology -- have
multiple definitions that differ by society and time.
They also do not correlate all that well with the
official political parties of the US or GB.
NEW DMB:
No. The rights and liberties that belong to everyone equally is an
intellectual guide for society, not social values. In fact, their purpose is
to put limits on social values. But that wasn't even my point.
DMB says:
Are you trying to imply that liberals and intellectuals
are in favor of
accepting unproven ideas, of widely distributing
unproven new ideas? That
they don't see "the value of the ongoing society"? No
way. Liberals want all
that too. And more besides. In any case, I don't think
its fair to make
exclusive claims about these values.
PACO:
Haven't you been making exclusive (or near exclusive)
claims about values? Why the double standard?
NEW DMB:
Can biological values understand Social values? No, they are excluded from
that. Its not possible for them to see the 3rd level. Its beyond them. Its
not possible. The same rule applies at all levels. Social values can't see
intellectual values either. In that sense I've made claims about what is
excluded at the social level. But that wasn't my point either. The unfair
implication that I wass objecting to was that liberals don't mind if
society is destroyed or if unproven ideas are widely distributed. Nobody
wants that. Nobody is excluded from having those values, except for psychos
and unibombers.
PACO:
But back on point, the proofing of ideas is EXACTLY the
potential downside to modern Liberalism. It has tons of
ideas on how to achieve equality, health care,
environmental quality, peace, social safety nets,
better education, lower prices, etc. The problem is
that these ideas often backfire and achieve unexpected
results. Frequently, liberal solutions have led to the
opposite result intended (increased crime , worse
control over one's retirement, higher prices and
shortages, poverty, family breakdown, socialism, etc).
This weakness is further exascerbated by the liberal
tendency to judge on intentions rather than results and
by its current daliance with anti-rational post-modern
philosophy and cultural relativism.
NEW DMB:
What? People make mistakes!? Say it ain't so. Alert the media!
More later,
DMB
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