From: Patrick van den Berg (cirandar@yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Oct 30 2002 - 14:47:27 GMT
Hi there again,
> > Thus, this Super-Turing machine could pass any practically
> > conceivable Turing test -'practically', that is.
> > That's the whole point.
> i do not see how this is an argument against strong AI. infalibility
> is not
> something that humans have, so neither will a computer version. you
> could
> consider a computer who acts like a very stupid human being, so non of
> this
> math hogwash gets into the picture
> if you mean that it may not convince us 100% of the time, well i have
> friends
> who fail to convince me of their being concious sometimes.
Furthermore:
> so now penrose (as understood by me, from the discription provided by
> you)
> seams to make the leap that this means that there is no written (and
> mathematically undescribable) information that i could conceivably
> give him to
> make him do his work. this is not a valid logical leap.
>
> and again besides the point, as you could construct an imperfectally
> concious
> machine - one which is not free of contradictions and complete at the
> same
> time. i do not think any human being is free of contradictions and
> complete at
> the same time (i would call him/her a god), and so no need to expect a
> perfectlly concious robo
You seem to be on the same line as Dennett here. Of course we're
fallible, practical, not free of contradictions and not complete. But
Penrose's point is that we sometimes CAN be sure as hell we're right
about something (Even in areas where turing machines can't). That
somebody's or some machine's BEHAVIOR can be indistinguesable, that's
irrelevant to Penrose. Penrose brings in Plato. We can make contact to
some (mathematical) World of Ideas. And we see some truths here in
systems we find there, and falsehoods as well. Penrose says that a
Turing machine cannot make contact to this platonic realm, because of
the fact that because turing machines can't touch PARTS of this world,
where we CAN, he generalizes this to his proposition that turing
machines can't be in touch with this platonic realm of mathematics AT
ALL.
Pat.
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