IN WHICH I TAKE ISSUE WITH DONNY ON THE RELIGIOUS ISSUE AND AGREE WITH BO.
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Hi Squad!
Once more into the fray:
> Me :
>
> Consider these two statements:
> a. Without a strong social level controlling biology, the
> intellectual level
> does not have
> the necessary base from which to operate to seek and experience
> Quality.
> b. Without God (your choice) to control the flesh, the spirit can't
> seek and
> commune with God.
> Virtually the same?
>
A reasonable question. It didn't have to be the God of Jews, Moslems or
Christians. I sense antipathy to deists in your response. I always considered
them to be our natural allies. Anyone who sees value in reality can't be all
bad ;-)
> Donny:
> One big difference here: That idea about God controlling the flesh
> is wraped-up in the Old Testiment-derived myth of the Fall -- nature as
> fallen; the Earth as a bad, evil place of exile. The field of time is bad
> and we all should want to be only in the trancendent place, beyond the
> field of opposits.
>
This is a rather simplistic description of Genesis. Nahmanides would probably
express it much differently. Separation from God (Quality) is still the
primary issue.
I have no particular theological axe to grind; I am Christian only insofar as
I was born and raised in the West. I see the world through the prevailing
Western metaphor. I have suspected, for many more years than I have been aware
of the Lila Squad, that Pirsig is proposing a different metaphor, but one that
is still "religious" in nature.
That may or may not be a bad thing. I am not as dead set against the
possibility that some deity may be involved in "all this" as some people are.
I find that many people will consider an idea if it is perceived as
non-religious they wouldn't give the time of day to if they perceived it as
religious in origin. Particularly Christian. Curious.
> Opposed to this idea of the Fall is 'Lila.' The trancendent
> enters the field of time willingly -- as play (like actors dawning masks.
> Nature is good. Live in harmony w/ it. Nature is all about hunting,
> killing and eating. Fine. That's grand. Participate w/ joy. A vegitarian
> is just someone whose never herd a plant scream.
>
Pirsig's main argument is that Western consciousness has become divorced from
"Quality -Morality-Value". Not so very different from a divorce(fall) from
Grace.
>
>
> This idea about God
> controlling the flesh -- to, say, the Native Amaricans, that's talking
> non-sense.
>
Non-sense to you, perhaps. I know many, and know of many more, reasonable
people who think otherwise. The number of physicists who subscribe to a
"religious" view of the cosmos is legion. I have no idea what specifically
you're referring to vis a' vis Native Americans - all the various tribes I
know of have some creation myth and some concept of a supreme deity. Different
metaphor, that's all.
> DT Suzuki, the great Zen scholar, was once speaking about the
> diffrences between Eastern and Western "religion" and he stoped and said
> of the West: "God vs Man. Man vs God. Man vs nature. Nature vs. man. God
> vs nature. Nature vs. God. Very funny religion."
>
I've not read much of Suzuki. I suspect his contempt arises from his knowledge
of popular Christianity, just as some of us who haven't delved into the
religion may find Hinduism to be "funny". Different metaphors.
Zen, philosophy, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, animism and a whole
host of other "isms" are, ultimately, attempts to pin down reality.
*********************
On the preserving the MOQ:
I'm with Bo on this one. We are gathered to examine the MOQ. We have wandered
far afield. Either the MOQ holds water or it doesn't, but we really need to
stick to the subject at hand or we may never find out.
*********************
Be well,
Don R.
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