Donny:
A note to say "I'm sorry!"
> DON R. writes:
> > This idea about God
> > controlling the flesh -- to, say, the Native Amaricans, that's talking
> > non-sense.
> >
> Non-sense to you, perhaps. I know many, and know of many more, reasonable
> people who think otherwise. The number of physicists who subscribe to a
> "religious" view of the cosmos is legion.
>
>
> ME:
> Don, I'm not sure where you got the impresion that I am somehow
> anti-religion!!?? Actually I've spent a great deal of time studying the
> myths, religions, and symbols of people all over the world. It's very much
> who I am, and it's entierly what my art is about: the relationship between
> spirituality and culture (the universal questions and insigts, and how
> they are clothed diferently by various peoples). Somehow you seem to be
> under the impresion that i think no reasonable person could be religious!?
> I can't figure out how you got that from my post, but I'm sorry for
> whatever misled you.
>
Maybe as much, or more, me as it was you. I spend some time on another
forum and get regularly attacked by the anti-religious. Morality,
however presented, is threatening to some supposed intellectuals. I tend
to get hypersensitive sometimes. Last night was a long night.
> DON goes on to say:
> I have no idea what specifically
> you're referring to vis a' vis Native Americans - all the various tribes I
> know of have some creation myth and some concept of a supreme deity.
> Different
> metaphor, that's all.
>
>
> ME:
> Yes, they do all have various creation myths. I've read a lot of
> them. So far as i know, nowhere in Native American mythology dose one
> find the idea of a Fall or Fallen Nature -- the world as a bad place, a
> place of exile from paradise where all we can do is wait and pray for the
> Kingdom Come. For the Native American mind (and, say, the Taoist) nature
> -is- pardise. There was no Fall, no exhile, and no redemption in Kingdom
> Come. In Gnostic Christianty, Jesus is recorded (by Thomas) as saying,
> "The Kingdom of Heaven will not come as if by expectation. Men will not
> say, 'it is here; it is here.' The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the
> earth NOW and men do not see it." (My emphisus on 'now') That's sheer
> Buddhism! But that's what's absent in "main-streem" Judism, Christianity
> and Islam. You can find it in Cabala (Jewish msticism).
>
Hence my reference to Nahmanides.
> You can find it
> in Gnostacism and Suphi (Christaian and Islamic mysticism, respectivly),
> but you won't find it in Sunday school.
>
I came here by the "mystic" route. God will be found in nature if God is
to be found at all. The Fall is much more (and much less) than popular
Christianity understands.
Sunday School is the Social Level at work. Completely different
function. You can't be serious about God in church.
Is this also a problem in Buddhism? As I understand it, Zen is a
reaction against mainline Buddhism.
>Back to Don:
> DT Suzuki, the great Zen scholar, was once speaking about
the
> diffrences between Eastern and Western "religion" and he stoped and
said
> of the West: "God vs Man. Man vs God. Man vs nature. Nature vs. man.
God
> vs nature. Nature vs. God. Very funny religion."
>
I've not read much of Suzuki. I suspect his contempt arises from his
knowledge of popular Christianity, just as some of us who haven't delved
into the religion may find Hinduism to be "funny". Different metaphors.
ME:
Yikes!! I don't think so, Don. I don't think Sazuki was
contemptuous of anything. I think he made a humerous statement that was
also an effective teaching tool. He highlighted a basic cultural
difference w/ respect to religion.
W/ the idea of 'lila' (put in MOQ terms): DQ becomes sq
willingly.
There is no Fall from grace. The a-temporal mystery enters the field of
time in order to experience itself, because experience is always in
terms
of pairs of opposits (past and future, up and down, good and bad, me and
you...). But sq isn't bad. It's great. The goal in Buddhism (and this
is
what Sazuki was getting at) is to put you at-one w/ the universe -- you
identify w/ all things. But if nature/the world/the field of time (sq)
is
Fallen... then you do -not- identify w/ it. Nature is bad and you must
be
cleansed of it.
Of these two views I think it's safe to say Pirsig is a
supporter
of 'lila' -- not the Fall. And that was my point. Nothing more.I
probably misunderstood the quote. I promise to read Suzuki. Can't be any
stranger than moral rocks. vbg
> DON:
> Zen, philosophy, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, animism and a
> whole host of other "isms" are, ultimately, attempts to pin down reality.
>
>
> ME:
> YES!!!
>
Again, I apologize.
Be well,
Don R
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