> -----Original Message-----
> From: Platt Holden [SMTP:pholden5@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 12:47 PM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Zen and the intellect
>
[David Buchanan] Platt and David T.
Both of your responses were good and fast! You both make some
good points. Since most of them are here in Platt's post, I'll address
both of you in this reply.
Please forgive me if this turns out a mess. I don't often post
this way and am uncertain.
> I don't know quite what to say to David Buchanan who Gallager-like
> sledgehammered me for asserting that mystical experience is our
> present
> and ordinary state of awareness. (-: I fully agree that there are many
>
> different actual and possible experiences, from Satori to Nirvana to
> being
> in the "zone" to hypnosis to abject fear to somnolence, etc. But all
> are
> "ordinary" in the sense that they are emanate from the single center
> of
> awareness that you are. Being "enlightened" isn't something special.
>
[David Buchanan] I have put the sledge hammer away and I've
shapened a knife. Now we're down to spltting hairs. But I'm not ready to
retreat from the idea that the mystical experience is extraordinary.
Thanks for taking the hammering with a sense of humor. That was
certainly my intention. :-) I was trying to be funny and CLEAR at the
same time.
> Alan Watts put it this way:
>
> "All that needs to be experienced for cosmic consciousness is already
> present, and anything in excess of this is obstructive and redundant."
>
[David Buchanan] Yes, it is already present, but latent. There
is no certainty that the experience of "cosmic consciousness" will be
realized by everyone.
Watts is just saying that the capacity is in all of us, that it
is a completely natural part of the human experience. Have you heard
about the theory that an area of the brain is built for such activites?
The Watts quote reminds me of the CG Jung saying that the church was an
impediment to spiritual growth. I guess he'd say the church is
obstructive and redundant just as easily.
>
> Or how about this from Krishnamurti who Rob quoted in another context:
>
> "The real is near, you do not have to search for it; and a man who
> seeks
> truth will never find it. Truth is in what *is*--and that is the
> beauty of it. But
> the moment you conceive it, the moment you seek it, you begin to
> struggle; and a man who struggles cannot understand. That is why we
> have to be still, observant passively aware."
>
[David Buchanan] It doesn't always work, but most Eastern
thoughts become much clearer when seen through MOQ eyes. The above Kris
quote is a good example of the MOQ's power to clarify certain concepts
which are alien to the Western mind. As I see it, Kris is talking about
the difference between static intellectual patterns about Truth and open
up to Dynamic Quality. He's talking about a stillness of mind that comes
with the release of those static patterns.
> David L. Thomas in quoting Steven Batchelor also reminds us that the
> Buddha was not a mystic:
>
[David Buchanan] This was really very refreshing. Usually folks
jump all over the idea that Jesus was a mystic and leave Buddha issue
out of it. You can imagine the reaction of most devout Christians.
> "His awakening was not a shattering insight into a transcendent Truth
> that
> revealed to him the mysteries of God. He did not claim to have had an
> experience that granted him privileged, esoteric knowledge of how the
> universe ticks."
>
[David Buchanan] I've got so many things to say about this
quote that I hardly know where to begin. I don't think genuine mysticism
makes any claims about "privileged, esoteric knowledge of how the
universe ticks". That sounds more like the claim of an arrogant Western
scientist. Certainly Pirsig's ideas about mysticism make no such claims.
He repeatedly refuses to say anything about the mysteries of Dynamic
Quality itself and true mystics take a similar attitude toward "God".
The mystics say God is a metaphor for a mystery. Seems a bit of a
paradox to worship a metaphor, I know. But its the same parradox we see
in Pirsig's refusal to say what Quality is, even though he claims that
the entire universe is composed of it. I'm really not sure if Steven
Batchelor actually believes what he says about mysticism. I wonder if he
just wants to clear up a common mis-conception about mysticism? Pirsig
would say that "privileged, esoteric knowledge" is just fine, but it is
still just another set of static intellectual patterns. The full blown
mystical experience is the letting go of ALL static patterns in favor of
pure Dynamic Quality.
> So I think there's quite a bit of evidence, not all from anti-mystic
> Satan-
> invoking fundamentalists, to at least question David's view that
> mystical
> experience is something unique.
>
[David Buchanan] There are a couple of other types of
anti-mystics I failed to mention last time, not that I'm accusing you of
any of this. I'm just talking about that cultural immune system, the one
that filters out things like mysticism and the dharmakaya light. I like
to call one type the nihilists. They like to insist that Buddhism
implies that life is meaningless. They love to use to words void and
nothingness a lot. They often wear black and smoke too much. :-) The
other type are the anti-intellectuals. The especially like the quotes
about empty minds. "Chop wood. Carry water." You know, the mundane isn't
really made sacred for them, but it helps make their morning chores seem
kind of exotic. One of these actually said to me with a straight face,
"Everything is everything, and nothing matters", Lot of new agers in
this category.
> Clearly we have disagreement about what mystic experience means,
> reflecting I think a general misunderstanding of Eastern philosophies
> in
> the Western world. In any case, please be assured that I do not make
> any claim that my interpretation is the correct one or is to be taken
> as the
> last word on a fascinating subject.
>
[David Buchanan] I also find it a fascinating subject and it
seems vital to a proper understanding of the MOQ. I'll also join you in
making no claim to be an authority on the topic. I'm fond of saying that
I'm educated enough to appreciate the vast extent of my own ignorance.
We also agree that disagreements are bound to happen because of
translation problems. Just today I read a review of a new translation of
the Sutras. The translator was acting on the belief that previous
translations have distorted the meaning. And Pirsig's definition of
Karma as evolutionary garbage isn't likely to show up in any
translation.
But there is something to hang on to. At the heart of mysticism,
East and West, there is a common belief that there is something more
real than ordinary reality. There is a common view that people who see
normal, everyday consciousness hides the true nature of reality and of
one's own being and that the trick is to shatter the illusion. The
illusion has been called many things, simply "the world" or "the veil of
tears" in the West or in the East its called the Maya or "the world of
the ten thousand things". The mystic may not be able to say exactly what
it is that lies behind the illusion, but he sees how empty the illusion
is. (static and Dynamic) Instead of privileged, esoteric knowledge the
mystical experience usually gets you a huge belly laugh.
But then there really is the idea that you already knew it all
along, but had fogotten or failed to fully appreciate what you thought
you knew. There is a realization that it is really not all that exotic
or supernatural or whatever other wizard of Oz spectacle one may have
expected. People are amazed at the simplicity revealed in a mystical
experience.
The Dali Lama loves a good steak now and then. Likes to hang
with hollywood celebrities. And he wears a wrist watch with a second
hand! How does the saying go? "...consistancy is the hob-gobblin of
little minds."
Thanks for your time.
>
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