MYSTIC ROGER RESPONDS TO JEFF AND HORSE
ON THE DEAD QUOTE
Sorry guys, but I cut and pasted myself into a mess. To try to make sense, I
am starting each quote with the name in parenthesis. In many cases, Jeff is
replying to Horse's statement immediately prior to my editorial comment.
(THE QUOTE)
>> >While living,
>> >Be a dead man.
>> >Be completely dead,
>> >And then do as you please.
>> >And all will be well.
>>
(ROGER)Similar to the two of you, I question the focus on the intellect in the
quote. I agree that it was the part of the book where it was the intellect's
turn to be disposed, but I think he distorts the poem for this purpose. I also
agree there is quite a distinction between passive "be dead" and active
"kill".
(JEFF) Recall earlier in LILA, where RMP talks about Zen tea ceremonies?
........ When the intellectual PoV's are put to sleep then the Dynamic
Quality can shine through.>>>>>>>
(ROGER) Uh oh, not the dreaded intellect vs zen thread! Don't let Rob read
this. Seriously though,why the focus on one level? Especially the most
dynamic most free level. Have you guys ever read anthropological studies on
chimps.... how they cheat, trick, form alliances, betray each other, kill the
defenseless chimps, attack other tribes....in other words act as bad as our
worst nightmares. Is the social level where we want to retreat? I think not.
How about the biological level and rape, eat and be eaten, get sick, die.
Yeah lets take solace here.
Don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting the intellect is the Holy Grail
(though if you think about it , it might have been). I am suggesting that the
key is not to drop one level, it is to free yourself from all static patterns.
(HORSE) 'Reality' as a product of the intellect is illusory. This is not to
say
that reality is a figment of the imagination but that what we experience or
assume to experience is not
what is 'real', just how it appears to us. We form reality via the filter of
the senses
and by what we expect reality to be.>>>>>>>>
(ROGER) I would say that experience is all that is real. All the rest is
illusion or abstraction. Experience is real, and "we" and "the world" are
assumed. The patterns are the illusions. DQ isn't just un-intellectual, it is
unpatterned.
(HORSE) What is 'real' is not something that we can directly know - at least
not
through any intellectual means. We do not directly experience reality.>>>>>>
(JEFF) Yes. Ultimate reality is formless and therefore not directly
perceptible......>>>
(ROGER) I agree with the formless part, but would state that IT IS PERCEPTION.
Direct experience or Radical Empiricism is the base of reality. Reality is the
abstraction, not the other way around.
(JEFF CONTINUED) but at least from the human perspective, formlessness and
structure "need" each
other in a yin/yang sense. We could not know one without the other.>>>>>>>
(HORSE) Suffering is caused by rigid adherence to our belief in what is, in
fact,
illusory.>>>>>>>>
(ROGER) Or to rephrase, why adhere to static patterns when all is dynamic?
(JEFF) Belief systems are models that attempt to give form to the formless.
All
belief systems are "illusory", simply by virtue of the fact that they _are_
models. So in that sense, we are doomed to suffering as long as we need to
give form to the
formless. Which, BTW, is not necessarily bad. Somebody's gotta do the dirty
work of
giving form to the formless. Otherwise we'd all just be sitting on the floor
staring at the wall, and nothing would get done
But seriously, the pejorative usage of "illusory" bothers me here. I don't
know if it's coming more from you or from the Eastern traditions we're
talking
about, but it does bother me. We have to structure reality in order to do
all the
things that living creatures do.
Way I look at it, the worst suffering comes when we stubbornly, Statically
cling to patterns that have outlived their usefulness, instead of Dynamically
moving along to higher-Quality models. >>>>>>
(ROGER) I agree . The poem encourages death to truly live, this implies the
value of the experience beyond that of the pattern. Patterns are good, but
clinging to patterns is suffering. This reminds me of the aspect of
"universal DQ" (Walter's's term i believe) where the good is not chaos, it is
dynamic patterns. I think there is a parallel on personal DQ. The good isn't
chaotic, infant-like, senseless dynamic experience, it is dynamic patterned
experience.
(HORSE) As reality would appear to be a product of what each person
experiences there can be
no true concurrence of knowledge.>>>>>>
(ROGER) But if thinking is experience, it is more real than we are .
(HORSE CONTINUED) If this is true then we are forever condemned to argue over
the
true nature of reality. Only by agreeing to compromise on what is real can
we cease our arguments and disgreement, but we do so in the knowledge that
what we are
agreeing to is still not what is real only an agreed upon compromise.>>>>>>>
(ROGER) But direct everyday experience is the test of truth. There isn't some
Holy Truth out there waiting to be discovered." Discovering" is the truth.
(JEFF) But in another sense a new reality is created by our agreement.>>>>>>>
(ROGER) Agreement is truth! This is the dynamic nature of shared experience.
Be Good
Roger
MOQ Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:54 BST