MYSTIC ROGER RESPONDS TO DAN
(Roger)
Welcome back, Glove, I missed you. But you haven't been away THAT long ..... I
am not doing away with value forces. Remember it is Magnus, you and I that
have always argued FOR value forces. No, I am arguing that they are just
specific manifestations of DQ. But there is already a term for "manifested
DQ", it is....... Well, let's get take the slower road ....... Don't worry, I
promise to come back to this point
To clarify first,I am not fundamentally disagreeing with any of the concepts
of the MOQ, I am trying to get us to clarify the terminology and our thinking.
This is the essence of my message. Consider this an exploratory test of some
new, uncharted waters. Now for a few point-by-points:
(Glove):
The Metaphysics of Quality does not subscribe to the notion of subjects and
objects. The Quality Event does not create subjects and objects, rather "it"
pre-conditions our ability to describe what it is we believe that we are
experiencing as subject and object.
(Roger):
Pirsig's create quote is on page 114. But I won't split hairs..... Mystic
Roger agrees it is a secondary, derived concept.
(Glove):
It seems to me that if the meaning behind Pirsig's
Dynamic Quality is properly understood, "it" is beyond experience, since
"it" is beyond subject and object thinking, existing as simply "it" as in the
book
Zen in the Art of Archery. The Quality Event is just exerience which
pre-conditions experience. Dynamic Quality is forever just beyond the
"moving" Quality Event that we call the now, the moment.
(Roger):
See pages 419, 75, and 76. "It" is direct everyday experience, or pure
experience, or the cutting edge of experience, or the essence of experience.
These are the Master's words, not mine. Mystic Roger agrees with him though.
(Glove):
Experience pre-conditions Quality, Quality is experience which we have
pre-conditioned ourself to recognize.
(Roger):
Sounds like you are describing sq..... recognized quality, or as I said,
"patterns of experience."
(Glove):
Experience pre-conditions our ability to recognize inorganic patterns
of value, but in no way does experience "create" these patterns, for if it
did, all we would have to do is wish and our thoughts would spring into
creation. I have found this is not so.
(Roger):
I find it is so. When I think I create static patterns called thoughts. Again
though, you know this was a direct quote of RMP (p.114), so I am not sure if
you are arguing with me or stating that his terminology is unclear. If the
latter, I might agree.
(Glove):
Experience allows a greater degree of recognition, leading the
experiencer (you or I) to believe the patterns are becoming more complex.
The ordering of the universe does not take place outside the self. It takes
place within the self...... If ordering only takes place within the
experiencer
and not within what we perceive as subject and object, pattern complexity is
only the result of the ever widening circle of life lived, a phenomenal
happening
existing not independently from the experiencer, but IS the experiencer.
(Mystic Roger):
NOW YOU ARE TALKIN'! Experience leads to the patterns and the complexity and
the universe. Of course, I would have to clarify that the self is illusionary
too. The Experiencer is an abstraction of experience too.
(Glove):
In my opinion, forces of value are part of the 99% solution left
unmined by Pirsig and to discard it is a mistake. Pirsig's mention of value
forces, almost as an afterthought, is the way Dynamic Quality operates in
our reality. Shamans call this an omen, seers call it a sign, scientists
call it precession, detectives call it a clue. Whatever it is called,
Dynamic Quality always operates at a 90 degreeness to static quality
patterns of value in our universe.
(Roger):
YES! I am with you here. Value forces are specific, conceptualized patterns
of DQ, they are "the way DQ operates"....hence they are sq. They are not
things, they are values. But value patterns by definition are sq. Only direct
pre-conceptual experience is DQ. RMP's "value forces" and his "evolving
toward" uses of DQ are clearly conceptual, static abstractions of pure
experience. Do you see it now Glove?
(Glove):
Once the subject object distinction is dropped, evolution becomes a
collection of static patterns of value, like fish swimming in a sea of
Dynamic Quality possibilities-potentialities, always interacting at a 90
degreeness to each other when unleashed, undefinable Dynamic Quality is
manifested through value forces.
(Roger):
You said it .....value forces are "manifested" DQ. That is sq, right? The
"Universal DQ" we chatted on in October is in fact a pattern of Direct
experience, it is post conceptual.
(Glove):
Everything is not evolving towards "higher"
Quality, for that requires a static reference point of Quality in the first
place. Rather, it is simply that everything we experience seems to be
evolving towards Quality because Quality is what everything is. Our
insistence on hierarchies only perpetuates the notion of "higher" and
"lower". As a great master once murmured, when passing from this
existence- It is just this, and nothing more.
(Roger):
It is pure experience. Mystic Rog agrees.
(Glove):
Comfort levels dictate that we statically latch onto that which is familiar.
It takes an act of insanity to break the cultural boundaries that enslave us
all, perhaps like living a hundred days in the deep mountains, eating
nothing but pine needles pounded to a pulp, until your skin turns green;
being tormented by demons and angels alike, until the self becomes just
this. Just what it always has been, and will always be. Is there anyone who
would undertake such an act of insanity willingly? I think not.....
(Roger):
Heck! I was just asking you to open your mind, not eat needles till you are
green! :-)
(Glove):
Forces of value, creation and destruction, dictate what will be, and not
static patterns of value, which are ever changing and shifting into some
"thing" else...... Yet to free ourselves of static patterns is impossible, for
we are static
patterns, and how can one ever be free of self? Only by recognizing the face
of Dynamic Quality, and that is value forces, can we hope to gain a foothold
on the other 99% of the Metaphysics of Quality waiting to be discovered.
No Roger, value forces are not just an ugly add on or a sloppy idea, no, not
at all! They are complementary in nature to static patterns of value, but in
fact are of higher value, and therefore I think forces of value tend to
scare the dickens out of most of us. It's much more comfortable to be sure
and determined, is it not?
(Roger):
According to radical empiricism, value forces are static patterns. They are
experience defined.
Glove, please try to find the slightest glimmer of truth to what I am saying.
It may not be there (the truth), but I want you to promise me that you will
try. We can always go back to the well charted coast together, but I want you
to at least test these waters with me. Okay????? Please????
Mystic Roger
(Rational Roger is probably around here somewhere)
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