Hi, Mary --
Thanks for your thoughtful response. It's a fruitful discussion.
Apologies in advance if I'm taking some of this to somewhere you don't want
to go.
Mary: >> >and further, that Pirsig
>> >never experienced it himself, either.
Jeff:>> Question: What's your take, then, on the experience that RMP
relates near
>> the end of ZMM, sitting and staring at the wall for 3 days and nights,
until
>> he was finally hauled off for ECT?
Mary: >I was afraid somebody was going to ask me that. Let me just say that
>from personal experience these kinds of things are generally caused by a
>chemical imbalance in the brain. I don't mean to sound disrespectful of
>Pirsig. No matter what causes them, these events are life changing.
You're absolutely right about that.
Preface . . . I hope this reply won't seem insensitive to your own past
experience. I haven't had such an experience myself, but have watched a
close family member go through both chemical and ECT approaches to dealing
with depression. Gotta say, I do like your attitude about your "former
self." All righty, then . . .
I have a lot of difficulty with the term "chemical imbalance". I've
heard it used over and over, like some kind of mantra, freighted with
meaning, yet the nature of the alleged imbalance is never specified.
It smells of cliche, as in "We don't know what the hell has gone wrong,
but this sounds scientific, so let's say it."
I also sense in the phrase the wish to disguise our fear of this "vast
terra incognita" (RMP's phrase) we call the mind. We depend on it so
totally, but unlike a motorcycle, when it breaks we can't always fix it,
and even when we succeed we're not always sure why. Scary stuff, if
you think about it too much.
The other difficulty I have with the phrase is that it seems that the
logical extension of it is that each of us is nothing but a collection
of chemical compounds. Not to get into this too deeply, and I don't
hold to any particular dogma about spirit; but I recently acquired a
more recent p/b edition of ZMM, and read, for the first time, RMP's
afterword. If you haven't, it's a poignant meditation on the thought,
"Where did Chris go?;" and it's probably the reason I'm sensitized to
this particular issue right now. OK, 'nuff said.
Jeff: >> My take on it is that that was RMP's experience of purest DQ.
[Not that that
>> particular experience is a goal I would strive for, mind you.]
Mary: >And perhaps it is. I always felt smarter and more aware. I truly miss
>being manic (I was always a harmless one). Now that you mention it, my
>experiences felt very DQ too. '
If there only were some way to be able to recapture that feeling at will,
then let it go when you'd had your fill. But it's not an experience to
be had cheaply, is it?
Jeff: >> Please don't take this the wrong way, but to me the image of RMP
deducing
>> DQ from the levels reduces the MoQ to little more than a pet thought
>> exercise.
>> The idea that the MoQ is the end result of hard-won direct experience,
_plus_
>> a whole lot more thought and work after that to explain the experience,
to me
>> gives it much more impact. That's just the difference in our viewpoints,
>> I suppose.
Mary: >Yes, I guess we do see things differently. I admire scientific types
>generally, so it is actually high praise for me to suggest that Pirsig
>managed to deduce something as profound as DQ from ordinary
>observation.
You're absolutely right. I hadn't looked at it this way. And in rereading
what I said on the subject, it sounds a bit overblown. I was perhaps
devaluing your PoV a bit much to play up the dramatic impact of mine. I
still don't agree w/your take on it, but I understand it better.
Mary: >I also enjoy toying with ideas a lot. This was just the
>latest. I'm not sure I believe it myself, but I do think the best way
>to test an idea is to throw it out there and see what kind of response
>comes back. Thank you!
You're more than welcome. That's why I'm here, too.
Jeff: >> In your view, is it necessary to define DQ before you can know it?
Mary: >I guess so. Things that I don't understand generally drive me crazy.
Jeff: >> Hope this is some help.
Mary: >Yes, thank you. But I still wish you had just defined DQ for me!
;^)
Hugs,
Jeff
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