PHILOSOPHY COP SUSPENDED FOR WRONGFUL ARREST! FILM AT ELEVEN.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RISKYBIZ9@aol.com [SMTP:RISKYBIZ9@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 9:15 PM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD The 99 Percent Solution?
>
> ROGER PRAYS WE ARE APPROACHING UNITY
>
> Please read and reread and then read again the quotes I have here from
> RMP, Ant and Nishida. They clarify that the definition to all the
> terms and the release from the idealism claim have a common root: I
> thought my post from two days ago would free me from this charge, but
> I guess not. In light of our attempts at clarifying the MOQ, I
> believe WE ABSOLUTELY MUST ALL COME TO GRIPS WITH THIS ISSUE. If I
> have any misunderstandings, I want to clear them up this week.
>
[David Buchanan] A long-time Nishida quoter, Risky Roger of
aol.com, was released without bail today and all charges against him
were dropped. He was arrrested on charges of radical idealism and
aggrevated solipsism early this week. Mr. Roger has maintained his
innocence througout the ordeal. "I tried to show them those quotes from
Ant and Nishida, but they wouldn't listen", Mr. Roger said at today's
hearing. The suspended officer could not be reached for comment, but
issued this statement through his attorney...
> "From a mystic point of view, I think you can say that experience (or
> what
> Pirsig terms the QE) creates all entities from sub-atomic particles to
> people
> so the question for whom or what HAS the experience does not arise (as
> experience has them)." [Ant]
>
[David Buchanan] A proper understanding of Ant's quote would
rescue anyone from charges of solipsism. Notice that Ant equates the QE
with experience. Naturally, This meaning of the word is different than
the usual sense. QE experience is not the same as our "subjective"
experiences, as in "I have 20 years of driving experience". Ant equates
experience with the QE and says that it "creates all entities from
sub-atomic particles to people". Experience creates all static patterns,
including inorganic sub-atomic particles. But they don't have experience
so much "as experience has them". All Static patterns of Quality are
born of experience. QE is DQ giving birth to SQ. One could say the
phenomenal universe is composed of "experience made maifest" instead of
"Static Quality". Emerson's "Nature is mind, precipitated" is a third
way of saying the same thing. I actually prefer Pirsig's use of the word
Quality. Words like experience, information, consciousness, knowledge
and cognition are too un-lovely.
> "One issue that we encounter is that of possible solipsism.....That
> consciousness must be someone's conciousness simply means that
> consciousness must have a unity.The idea that there must be a
> possessor of consciousness above and beyond this unity is an arbitrary
> assumption."[Nishida]
>
[David Buchanan] Clearly the arbitrary assumption Nishida
refers to is "the idea that there must be a possessor of consciousness".
I'm pretty sure he is refering to a subject, a person or other sentient
being, when he says "possessor". Although I'm not sure exactly what he
means by "unity" as a requirement, I suspect any pattern of value could
be said to have the required "unity". It cool that he comes right out
and uses the word consciousness for all levels of awareness. I usually
resereve that word to refer only to intellectual level patterns because
of the related words, unconsciousness and self-consciousness. In any
case, I think Nishida points to another interesting issue. Unlike Ant's
quote, which equates experience with the QE itself, Nishida's quote says
unity is the only requirement for consciousness, which strongly suggests
that static patterns retain consciousness even after the QE/experience
that gave birth to that static pattern. We could say that all static
patterns are born of experience and they "remember". It seems it static
patterns are to evolve, retaining the experiences of the past is
essential. These static patterns are growing more complex through
further QEs.
David Thomas posted some quotes from Pirsig himself. Although
they seem to be about gravity, they are very useful in this solipsism
debate. Gravity is a real external reality and an inorganic pattern of
values.
Roger, thanks again for laying the issues out so clearly. And
thanks to all the great posters.
David B.
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