>ROGER IS STILL TRYING TO SHARPEN HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THE MOQ
>
>On 3/29 Glove wrote the following about our 99% development of the terms of
>the MOQ:
>
>>>>>>While the differences in opinion are seemingly small, the complexities
>underlying those differences are enormous. But that's what makes things
>interesting! Who wants to agree on everything anyway?>>>>
>
>Okay, I accept your point that subtleties are crucial.
>
>After the exchange we had off line,Glove, I am again revising my exact
>wording on Pirsig's philosophy. What do you think of my latest attempt? I
>see this as 100% accurate with the material from our off-line
exchange....Do
>you agree, or am I still missing something? My take on it:
>
>1). DQ is immediate, undivided experience.
Hi Roger
This is a really tough question. Are you defining DQ? It is my understanding
that we are prohibited from doing that. Would it perhaps be better put that
immediate, undivided experience is Dynamic?
>
>2) Undivided experience is an event. It is the quality event creating
>subjects and objects.
Glove:
If undivided experience is DQ, I do not believe it can also be an event. The
Quality event comes "after" DQ, in the wake of it, so to speak.
>
>3) Static quality and patterns are analoguous experiences. Mind and matter
>are derived from immediate experience. (sq is derived from DQ)
Glove: This I am in agreement with you on.
>
>4) Quality includes sq and DQ. Immediate experience and patterns derived
>from immediate experience.
Glove:
Perhaps it would help to define what we mean by "immediate
experience"...I'll start. Experience that comes to us through our senses,
as all experiences do, is not direct experience. Therefore we can say that
direct experience is impossible and that immediate experience is that which
is the immediate "now". What happens when we experience, let us say, a new
sight or sound? That immediate act of experience is in a sense completely
undefined for just a split microsecond, yet at the same time we must realize
that in order to experience anything at all, it must contain value.
Microseconds "after" the immediate experience, the self begins sorting and
categorizing and judging the experience in terms of previously conditioned
values.
It is here that subject-object awareness arises. It is immediate experience
that brujos, saints and zen masters would seem to approach, with mediation
and prayer, by neutralizing, in a manner of speaking, the sorting and
categorizing and judging that normally occurs. This is done by stopping the
internal discursive dialogue, the little voice that is always talking to the
self. In fact, it is very likely that this little voice IS the self, or the
subject, and that it is through this internal discursive dialogue that we
construct our entire reality based on subject/self and objects not part of
subject. This is the Quality event as we statically understand it.
We could then say that immediate experience is impossible to describe in an
unambiguous fashion as it lies completely outside of language, which we are
suspended in by the very way we must pre-condition our experience to find
value.
I dont know if any of this helps, but let me know what you think.
Best wishes,
glove
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