Hi Rog & Rich
On 21 Apr 99, at 22:17, RISKYBIZ9@aol.com wrote:
> Rich and I questioned the inconsistency between Pirsig's free will and the
> concept being isolated to living beings, and Horse answered:
>
> Horse:
> <<<<<<
> But a city or a culture does not exist without the people that inhabit
> them - in an anthropcentric sense. The social patterns of the city or
> the culture exert an influence upon their members which in turn
> affects the patterns. Similarly with thoughts, principles and theories.
> They require a means by which to manifest themselves. The patterns
> themselves are static but they change and evolve by interaction and
> emergence. The means by which they interact and emerge is the
> network of humans which they (partially) create and influence.
> Cities and cultures may respond dynamically but do they _perceive_
> Dynamic Quality? The patterns don't perceive - that's a property of
> what they create.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Roger Replies:
>
> I am not buying it, Horse. Something is still amiss. Let me try to spell
> out my concern.
>
> 1) The "extent to which one follows DQ" is Pirsig's definition of freedom.
As I see it the "one" to which Pirsig refers, in this instance, is any
specific example of a human being. Pirsig refers to 'persons',
'humans', 'Me', 'I' etc. as collections of patterns of value - i.e. a
creation of all of the static levels. I would interpret this not as a
further staticly determined entity but as an dynamic experiencing
entity. It is the combination and interaction of the levels that
determines the degree to which we are free.
> 2) Societies and Intellectual concepts are more dynamic and higher forms of
> evolution than is any biological pattern.
Yes. Intellect is more dynamic than society. I suppose you could
say that there is less momentum to overcome. With refernce to my
comments above, if we were to compare two 'individuals' then the one
with the greater degree of intellectual value (the more 'intellectual' of
the two) would be the more dynamic (assuming that the greater
degree of intellectual value implies a lesser degree of social value)
when considering the combination and interaction of the patterns.
This defines the extent to which ones behaviour is controlled by
static patterns of value.
> 3) Society and intellect "are not properties of man any more than cats are a
> property of cat food" (p. 303)
'Man' is created by patterns of value AND the interactions of those
patterns of value (QE's ?). The patterns themselves are just patterns.
It is only when they interact as part of a network of patterns, which
itself is part of a larger network, that they make sense. What
emerges from the patterns and the interactions is something greater
than the patterns of value themselves. It is the 'living being' that
emerges. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
> 4) Therefore I think according to the MOQ, the higher two levels are more
> free than is a "living being".
But a 'living being' is more than the static patterns - it is created by
the patterns and becomes subject to experience.
I think the problem here is in considering patterns of value as some
sort of objective, independent entities. Patterns of value are part of an
overall emergent relationship.
> Now I agree that this is not FREE WILL as commonly understood in SOM-land,
> but cultures and stock markets and theories are more free per the MOQ than
> are those of us that thought we controlled these higher patterns. Let me know
> what I am missing. (Or is Pirsig missing something?)
Neither cultures nor stock markets nor theories exist independently,
so do not independently perceive or adjust to DQ. They are part of a
complex network of quality/value relationships.
You're right Rog, there is something missing here but I'm too
knackered at the moment to see what it is. Perhaps you could
respond to this post and we could explore this a bit further. I don't
think there is necessarily a contradiction, but the present
interpretation is not clear either (not to me anyway).
Cheers
Horse
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