>ROGER CONTINUES THE DIALOGUE ON THE
>THOT EXPERIMENT WITH GLOVE (AND OFFERS A
> MONEY BACK OFFER TO HORSE)
>
>Below is a cut and paste of Glove's comments and my (Roger) new replies.
>
>Thank you for your time and input Glove!
>
>Roger:
>The question I want to answer deals with......"How exactly can you pursue
>experience?" Or inversely, how would you avoid it? Running from experience
>is like running from your shadow in the sunshine. If we are experience,
then
>we can hardly avoid ourselves now can we? No, of course not.
>
>Glove:
>I disagree. We avoid experience all the time by simply ignoring it. We are
>conditioned into this by the very way we experience. Personally I know
>people who have been avoiding themselves for years by any means they can
>find. Alcohol, drugs, tv, what-have-you, are all ways of ignoring what self
>is and avoiding the experience of self.
>
>Roger:
>But these avoidances are themselves experience....right? I think we are
>really saying the same thing.
Glove:
The experience not experienced by avoidance is an experience in itself...
Hmmm... That's a toughie. If someone is passed out drunk on the floor, are
they experiencing? What happens to experience when we sleep? Dreams are
experience but not the same experience as waking. Or are they? Yes, I can
see that we are both right and yet both wrong at the same time. A very tough
question...
>
>Roger:
> So the key term
>isn't to pursue experience, it is to pursue a type of experience, or a
>quality of experience. The type of experience is clearly toward UNPATTERNED
>EXPERIENCE. Though Pirsig also warns of going too far into chaos.
>
>Glove:
>This I can agree with in a way, although "to pursue experience" gives me a
>feeling of discomfort. We cannot pursue experience for we are experience
and
>how can we pursue that which is already what we are?
>
>Roger:
>That was my point!!
>
>Glove:
>At the same time,
>experienced is static quality reality while non-experienced is Dynamic
>Quality. How can we pursue that which we do not experience? If indeed you
>mean to pursue Dynamic experience.
>
>Roger:
>No, I think it more appropriate to say that prepatterned experience is DQ,
>and patterned, conceptualized experience is sq.
Glove:
Can we call "prepatterned experience" experience though?
>
>Glove:
>Can you see that to think of pursuing experience is to have a particular
>goal in mind to the exclusion of all else? And rather than finding Dynamic
>Quality, only static quality will appear? This is what the master is
warning
>about. And that is what is my discomfort too, I think.
>
>Roger:
>I strongly agree with this. I think striving and pursuing themselves are
the
>path away from DQ. Using our above analogy, the path to DQ is not to
pursue
>it, it is to stop and embrace it.
>
> [the below relates to my decryption device thot experiment]
>
>Glove:
>I remember Jonathan mentioned something awhile back about random number
>generation and the fact that it is not possible to generate truly random
>numbers, but is possible to generate arbitrary numbers. No matter how big
or
>how complex the computer, it still must start with a finite set of numbers.
>
>Roger:
>Yea, I thot about this too. This actually improves the experiment because
it
>establishes some noise in the randomness.
>
>Glove:
>Evolution doesn't seem to use a clock. I don't know if you've read this
>paper or not...
>http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/adrianth/er97/paper.html
>It concerns artifical evolution in the physical world...self-evolving
>silicon computer chips. You should perhaps throw out the clock in your
>thought experiment and see what happens. Also, see my note above on random
>number generation, at first there isn't total chaos, there is a finite set.
>Is it possible to design a program using qubits (quantum computing) instead
>of numbers? That would seem an area of interesting possibilities.
>
>Roger:
>I will read it now. Again, the randomness does not have to be perfect. I
>agree that the thot experiment can be made much more sophisticated as you
are
>indicating.
>
>Glove:
>Yes I read about this "experiment" by Wheeler...where was it now? Fabric of
>Reality? It points to the way we perceive reality, most certainly.
>
>Roger:
>Actually, I don't remember seeing it there. I took it out of an even
better
>book.....THE COLLAPSE OF CHAOS by Stewart and Cohen. This book is in
>absolutely awesome. In fact, if either you or Horse buy it and don't like
>it, I would promise you that I will send you a check for the full cost of
the
>book. It is a mind expanding book when tied to the MOQ. (Sorry, I don't
know
>the rest of you[or do know] well enough to make the same guarantee).
Glove:
Yes that is where I read it! I knew I had read it somewhere. "The Collapse
of Chaos" is indeed a very good book.
>
>Glove: I am not sure what throwing out number generation will do to your
>thinking here. The pre-conditioned fear of the unknown is what causes us to
>hold on so tightly to static quality patterns of value, or in the MOQ,
>static quality values preconditioned fear to create stable patterns of
>value. Using qubits instead of numbers would seem to mean that instead of
>seeking to embrace the dynamic chance of number generation, we would
instead
>be dealing with super-impositional qubits in both time and space. Forget
>fear!
>
>Roger:
>Exactly. Your suggestions work to improve the model and clarify the
concepts.
>
>Glove:
>With the changes I suggested in your thought experiment, Roger, I started
>going thru some of your conclusions and quickly saw that my revisions
should
>perhaps be addressed before I go thru each and every one of your comments.
>Some I agree with and some I do not. I do thank you for your time in
putting
>this together though! Let me know what you think!
>
>Roger:
>Let's play!
ok! you will have to give me a few days... all of a sudden I find I am very
pressed for time. But I will get back!
>
>Rog
>
>PS I still want to buy you a beer when you come to town, Dan
Glove: And I will take you up on that offer soon!
>
>PSS Struan....I don't get any more rational than this. I am working on
some
>rational pieces on DQ in the other forum and on Free will for this one.
>Rational Rog is back!
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