Bob,
Your threads introduces issues that are important (i.e. government, law,
education, economics) and need to be explored within the context of MoQ.
However your conclusions within the context of MoQ are completely alien to my
understanding of it (from the response of others, theirs also) . Example: It
is my understanding that MoQ subscribes to a theory of evolution, That reality
as we know it evolved over time starting at the inorganic level, evolved to
biological, then social, then intellectual. But in you're first post on
government you come to this conclusion:
[Bob]
> This almost sounds like government falls in the biological level. What
> I think government is, actually, is the interface between society and
> biology.
[Dave T]
To me what this is saying that before there was any social grouping, of any
kind, for any purpose, by any animal, governments evolved. A pair of cardinals
built a nest about four feet from my front door this spring and raised three
babies. After mating the male remained around during the egg laying and
incubation to help protect the nesting female and helped with the feeding
after the babies hatched. Rudimentary social behavior (i.e. joint efforts to
protect, feed, and raise the young) evolved as a better "social" way to insure
species survival. Would you have us believe that THE STATE or THE GOVERNMENT
evolved some period of time before this? I don't think so. But you're posts
sure seem to indicate that.
[Bob]
> In this case, I put 'discovered' laws inherently in society.
> If this is true, the conclusion I come to is that the purpose of
> intellectuals is to 'discover' law, which then advances society.
[Dave]
Well, sort of. Under MoQ, the intellect, through the empirical process
proposes theories about "natural" processes that try to explain how they
"really" work. The sensory data for these theories is manifest in the three
levels below the intellect. The biological senses gather data, the intellect
filters the data and and proposes a theory, both intellect and society then
performs the role of "debunker" or "promoter" of these theories. Ultimately at
some point society becomes the "keeper" of the promoted "discovered laws." and
they become static patterns of value. These static patterns are always
contingent upon fresh insight of the intellect. But while these "discovered
laws" reside on the intellectual and social levels the "sensory data" from
which these have been derived and the practical effect of these "discovered
laws" can, and usually do, reside and work exclusively and discretely within
one level.
Then you go on to "created" laws and fall into the same trap as "government
evolving on the biological level" case above:
[Bob]
> Intellectuals who believe in 'created' law are the ones who make society
> go backward, since they destroy society and allow biological values to
> reign supreme. Then, again, there are only two courses; tyranny or
> chaos
> 'Created' laws--laws that mean anything--belong firmly in biology, since they
> can only be enforced through violence.
> Law is part of Society. The State is part of biology.
> States are biological patterns, law is a societal pattern.
> Since the State is strictly biological it is utterly, absolutely
> inferior to society. And when it expands, it reaches up and devours law
> and society. Biological values reappear.
[Dave]
Let's look at a static inorganic, biological, social pattern of value most are
quite familiar with, the automobile. Shortly after automobiles came into
existence various governments "created laws" regulating their use. These
"created laws" were and are enforceable through violence, i.e. fines, taking
your car away, throwing you in jail for, originally scaring horses and riders,
now for endangering other people in automobiles. Would you have us believe
that these laws evolved on the biological level prior to societies
domesticating the horse? Not only to you have the "Car-t" before the horse,
you have the "created laws" governing the "Car-t" before the "Car-t", and
horse, and people riding horses. Empirically, my sensory data says it ain't
so, but this is always contingent on you successfully explaining how the
"Car-t" came before the horse.
Dave Thomas
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