ROGER TRIES TO RESTATE THE ISSUES BEFORE
WE ALL GET LOST IN A PILE OF CUT'N'PASTES
AND ENDS WITH A MYSTICAL TWIST
Glove, Platt, Mary, Ken, Walter and Rich:
I have tried to summarize the salient points from the past few days. Let me
know what I have missed, but sometimes all the overpasting just obscures
relevant dialogue. Once in a while, it would help if we could rephrase what
we think we read so that we can give our audience a chance to correct our
view. This is your opportunity to correct me.
FIRST SOME SELECTIVE BACKGROUND:
1)Glove started the ball rolling by referencing the following Pirsigian quote
as proof that the world is subjective and began with his own experiences:
>"These patterns can't by themselves perceive or adjust to
>Dynamic Quality. Only a living being can do that."
2)Platt then agreed, saying that "Mine is the only world."
3) I (Roger) then suggested to Glove that if this statement of Pirsig's (or
of Platt's) is correct that it undermines the entire foundation of the MOQ.
If only living beings can respond or perceive DQ, then where do living beings
come from? Doesn't this undermine the entire inorganic level?
4)Mary then responded that I was misinterpreting Pirsig and that he was only
referencing social and intellectual patterns.
ROGER's COMMENTARY:
IF Pirsig is only refering to social and intellectual patterns, then Mary has
provided a way out of the dilemma. But I don't think he was. I think he was
referring to static patterns in general. Anyone else out there have an
opinion? If Mary's interpretation is correct though it does seem to shoot a
minor hole in Glove's argument and Platt's agreement that the MOQ is
solipsistic.
MORE BACKGROUND:
5)Ken then suggested that "Quality" is the original quality and that DQ
applies only to sentience.
6)Mary questioned her Dad's separation or distinction of Quality from DQ and
responded that "I don't think Prisig intends DQ to apply only to sentience.
I think DQ acts at all levels, including the Inorganic."
7)Glove then agrees with selective portions of Mary's posts but clarifies:
>That which is without value cannot be named, cannot be recognized. Is there
>such a thing as non-experience? Non-value? No, "it" is not a thing as we
>normally think of as thing. Therefore to make any statement concerning
>non-experience is problematical. The same applies to Dynamic Quality.
8) Platt further repeats that when he loses his consciousness that the world
will be lost with it.
MORE ROGER COMMENTARY:
I think I see where Platt and Glove are going with this. They seem to be
taking an angle of the MOQ where that which is not experienced does not
exist. If this is correct then the MOQ is Idealistic solipsism. As Glove
shows us, the MOQ does state that that which has not been experienced is
conceptually unknown. In fact, Pirsig explains this in detail in SODV.
However he doesn't deny the conceptual unknown's existence, he just states
that it is DQ. He states that to mention the unmeasured phenomenal object
would be meaningless....and that an unmeasured object has no properties.and
is unpatterned. I quote:"The patterns only emerge after an experiment. The
unmeasured phenomenal object is not phenomenal and not an object."
Clearly, I agree that there ain't no subjects without objects. They are two
sides of the same illusory coin. However to say that only living beings
perceive and adjust to DQ is PURE SOM B/S. Experience does not just create
the illusory object, it also creates the illusory subject. Living beings
themselves are just collections of patterns derived from DQ. DQ is not
something to be responded to....it is the response itself. It is the event
from which living beings are derived. Experience is primary. Experience is
DQ. You do not exist independent of the world. The world does not exist
independent of you. But DQ always exists everywhere. And you and I are not
really the illusions of Maya. The true deep reality is that we are pure DQ.
There is no provision for life after death in the MOQ. However, there is the
provision that your life was an illusion from the beginning. Your life and
your world is just the illusory dance of Lila.
But I could be wrong,
Rog
MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:03:05 BST