Hello everyone
Platt wrote:
>Hi Glove,
>
>Thanks for passing along Doug Renselle’s ontological axioms.
>Basically I agree with them, but I have a few observations and
>questions.
>
>1. Primal or proemial creation in no way depends on man or any
>other sentient.
>
>If this refers to creation of the universe, such as the Big Bang, it
>assumes a beginning (and its opposite, an end). Does this
>contradict #2 which speaks of infinity? (Is the term “proemial”
>necessary? I had to look it up and I’m still not sure what it means.)
Glove:
In my dictionary it says that "proem" means: an introductory statement;
preface; prelude. [Gr. "pro", before, + "oinos", a path]
proemial, adj.
I will not presume whether the word is necessary or not... I do think it is
highly descriptive of a time "before" time, or before human experience and
pathways of awareness. In a sense, this "proemial creation" refers not to
the Big Bang, although it could. Rather I see it as referring to a time
before each of us as individuals were born... our face before our birth, so
to speak.
>
>Also, the term “sentient” bothers me. The dictionary definition is
>“capable of feeling and perceiving things.” In Chp. 9, Pirsig
>describes Dynamic Quality: “Its only perceived good is freedom and
>its only perceived evil is static quality itself—“ If this means what I
>think it means, i.e., “The only good DQ perceives is freedom and the
>only evil it perceives is static quality itself,” DQ would qualify as
>“sentient” casting doubt on Axiom 1. But the next two Axioms can
>probably still stand because “awareness” is mighty close to being
>analogous to “sentience.”
>
>2. Flux is aware. (from zero to infinite Hertz in infinite dimensions.)
>
>“Flux” and “Hertz” suggest waves. Are there no particles to be
>accounted for? Would particles also be aware? Does “flux” include
>particles?
Glove:
>From what I understand of Doug's usage of the term, "flux" is change, or
Dynamic Quality, thus static quality patterns, or particles, would not be
aware as we normally think of as human awareness. Only a living being can
respond to DQ thus qualify as being aware. If "flux is aware" then what we
normally think of as awareness IS response to DQ.
>
>3. Awareness scales.
>
>Does this mean awareness scales in spaciousness or intensity? Or
>both? Or in some other dimension?
Glove:
Awareness scales as preconditioned values allow, I suppose you could say.
>
>What happened to Quality? Shouldn’t Quality be included in axioms
>relating to the MOQ? Without Quality being specifically included it
>seems to me the axioms are suited more to panpsychism than to the
>MOQ.
Glove:
You may be right here... I can certainly see your point.
>
>It’s probably unfair to pose these questions to you. Perhaps Doug
>will read this and respond.
Glove:
Yes perhaps he will. Doug is starting an email discussion group of his own
which might be of interest to some of the members here. Please check on his
Quantonics site for details.
>
>I do have a couple of direct questions for you, though. You wrote:
>“At first glance, these axioms seem to contradict what I have been
>stating as far as experience being Quality and awareness being
>reality.”
>
>What is the difference between experience and awareness? Doesn’t
>Pirsig say that experience is reality? (“Quality is direct experience,
>independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions.” Lila, Chp. 5.)
>As I understand it, Quality=experience=awareness=reality. There
>are no distinctions.
Glove:
As far as I can see there is no difference between awareness and experience.
That's why I say at first glance axiom #1 seems to contradict the MOQ
statement that "man is the measure". If reality does NOT depend on awareness
or experience, are we not contradicting the MOQ? But we are forgetting that
the MOQ drops causal relationships in favor of valuing preconditions.
Therefore Doug's axiom does not contradict the MOQ at all.
>
>Looking forward to your thoughts.
Glove:
Thank you for sharing your comments. I will look forward to your response as
well.
Best wishes
glove
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