Hi, Bo !
First let me thank you for everything you've contributed in this
discussion (especially the praise ;) ), your ideas and arguments are
always much appreciated and inspiring.
While the emotion/social topic is now concluded, it enabled me to get a
better grasp of what I meant by "social", and to build a reliable
understanding of its workings (it still need further work, but then,
what doesn't ?). You were quite right by saying how explaining ourselves
often helps clarifying it to oneself.
Back to the SOLAQI :
B. Skutvik wrote:
> [I wrote : ]
> > This idea has in fact many interesting points, but I wonder if you
> > do not push it a tad too far. That we are able to think of
> > ourselves as separates entities seems a good starting point for the
> > rise of reason (but I still think of this term in a vague sense of
> > social/intellectual levels thrown together - SOM mind if you will),
> > but to define REASON (your definition of it - ie. the Intellectual
> > level) as Subject-Object Logic seems, well, a bit too occidental to
> > me. Since S/O logic is a discovery that can be historically and
> > geographically located in Greece, 500 years BC, it would mean that
> > basically, other civilizations never had an Intellectual level at
> > all prior to this, and that until the 19th century it was the sole
> > possession of western (and muslim) civilization !
>
> You say (somewhere else): "Inside a level they (there?) are
> scales of evolution." That goes for intellect too. Some people tend to
> equalize it with mental activity or mind of SOM (a dangerous concept
> when transferred into the MOQ) as if someone suddenly
> achieved an ability to think, but I think that's wrong. Cave man did
> speak and possibly formulated complicated theories of origin and
> destiny, but intellect (language) was IN THE SERVICE OF
> SOCIETY, i.e:. the world view was identical to the common myth. I
> can't imagine a latter day atheist or a modern sceptic among them.
>
> What took place in Greek, hundred of thousand years later, was
> the emergence of intellect as a value on its own terms, which started
> to free itself of its social fetters: Its first target the Gods. To
> start pointing to them as myths and fairy tales was to unmask them.
> In the early days they had been taken for granted!
>
> I think this is the way to see intellect's development, else it falls
> victim to your criticism of occidentalism.
>
OK, this explanation is something I like better, and I do agree fully
this time. I often had a hunch that, as interpretations of the universe,
religions (or more precisely mythologies) had a proto-metaphysics feel
to them, and nearly put them under the Intellectual level. In fact, if
your replace "language" in the above quote by "mythology", I think we're
near that social/intellect machine code I was talking about. What do you
think ? I sounds a bit like "logos over mythos", doesn't it ?
> Your "radiator" experience was quite extraordinary. If you don't mind
> me saying so you remind me of myself as young (my essay at
> the "forum" page).
Thank you for the compliment. As a return, I'll tell you that I think
"the Quality Event" is one of the finest piece of writing on Pirsig's
work I've read. I am glad you are back to the forum, I was a bit
disappointed when I started posting and saw you were missing.
> That intellectual "mind" has a great influence on
> the lower levels' "minds" is for sure. The remark about the torturer
> is an apt observation and something that I have used at several
> instances.
>
Gosh ! I hope you're talking about the intellectual fact and not about
torture itself !... :O
> PS.
> The "ressentir" information was quite welcome (you should heed
> that). French is a language for doing philosophy that is for sure. My
> mill got a lot of water there ;-).
>
> PPS
> Couldn't you find a way to criticize my last message in the LS
> discussion using your ideas here (put in enough of self and soul
> references so that it passes censorship). These our deliberations
> deserve publication. Don't you think?
Yeah, we were somewhat selfish in keeping it to ourselves. I'll forward
our last two messages and a copy of this one to the moq_discuss forum.
They might not be revolutionary, but I feel they'll make pretty good
posts anyway.
As for the LS, I'm not sulking but I have problems coordinating my
e-life with the real one (when will we invent the 48h-hours days ? I
need them !), but I'll give it a try anyway, even if it's midnight and I
have to wake up at 7:30 am. :(
>
> PPPS
> My wife and I are leavinig for a two week vacation trip Saturday the
> first.
>
Well, if you ever come to Paris, let me know, I'd be glad to meet you,
and I'm sure we could spare some place if you want to spend the night.
A plus tard !
Denis
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