Hi Denis,
I just realized I have some unfinished business here concerning your reply to my post earlier
this month.
Denis:
> There are no static patterns in this universe, just as there are
> no trees, no sky, no stars, sub-atomic particles or self. These are
> words, ideas, models for our experience, which is forever dynamic. The
> self is never experienced, it is inferred from the seeming continuity of
> experience and memory.
Bill:
> This is pretty true as far as I can see but it makes me laugh.
> I think of
> the Objectivists I used to debate with on AOL. This kind of statement
> just drives the rationalists crazy. They feel like you're playing some
> kind of shell game with them.
Denis:
> Who gives a damn? ….
>Nowadays, I never try to convince people who *know* they are right. It's
>a waste of time. Their cup is full, and I've got better things to do
>(like emptying mine in this forum).
I understand your sentiment. It takes a lot of hard work to make gains against the rigid
patterns within and around us. I find that if somebody has a "full cup"--that you can insert
a straw and empty it very quickly (in American politics, this is known as the Bill Clinton
approach). But Denis, I know that you really *do* give a damn and that you understand why
it is important to care…and that you do…and also realize that caring and positive action must
arise from a good supply of that "uncola" we call gumption…and that you also know that one
cannot let their gumption be drained beyond a certain point.
Bill:
> Dennis, the truth is that for you, there *is* the sky, stars,
> sub-atomic particles and self. They are more then just words, ideas
> and models for our experience which are forever dynamic.
Denis:
>There are also sensations, but then I fail to see what else there could
>be. I'm not a Buddha or a mystic, so of course I'm filtering all this
>through my patterns….
>Getting the Dynamic perception bare is the most difficult thing in the
>world to achieve. It nearly drove Pirsig mad, and you want me to try it
Well I didn't mean to suggest you put on a metal jacket and go out into a lightening storm
with bottle and cork in hand! One begins such work *based* on their particular patterns.
Phaedrus had a 170 IQ and a predilection all his own even as you and I have predilections all
out own. For instance, when I was just a little guy Dad tied a pork chop around my neck
and said, "Suzie, I want you to go on out there and play with the neighborhood dogs for a spell".
Then he got this proud but somewhat malicious grin on his face and said, "and if those dogs don't
play nice, why you just take your pork chop and bring it back in here!"
Denis:
>Just because I'm limited doesn't mean I can't have an (imperfect) idea
>of what things are like at this level of awareness…..
>I'm making a model of what I believe reality to
>be, I'm into the degenerate activity of metaphysics. But then, perhaps
>you believe we should just all drop the subject and get a beer instead ?
Some people have beer or wine while they're reading the menu.
> Well, anyway, I'll take this advice and go and fetch myself one.
............
Done.>
(this is where I thought your post had ended and I didn't scroll any further until this
morning when I was re-reading it and discovered that it continued)
Bill:
> I have read of people who were said to have such extended power over the phenomenal
> world. They were credited with being able to actually change the
> reality represented by the fixed value of X into a reality represented
> by the fixed value of Y. These people did not indulge wantonly in
> mysticism and would've dismissed the assertion that a wholesome
> metaphysics is degenerate. They were people who thought in practical
> scientific terms about reality. They admired scientists. For them
> magic was the in the sweet fragrance of a flower. Being able to make
> a flower materialize out of thin air in the palm of your hand would be
> called *science* by them because such an act involved technique born
> of full knowledge of fixed scientific laws.
>
Denis:
>Huh ?... [Denis scratches his head, takes a gulp down and wisely decides
>not to comment on this].
This must be where I (or the was it the beer?) began to baffle you. I guess what I'm trying
to say is that metaphysics--like regular physics--naturally leads to a transcendence of fixed
laws. This conversation we're having via internet would've once been considered a fantasy
notion. But now--out of the "thin air" of the inorganic world--it is possible. If anything I
say to you here has value, then some "magic" has arisen as a result (and possibly as a "cause"
as well).
Bill:
> I don't want to get involved in a discussion on such "miracles".
Denis:
>Good ! me neither...
Ha! Sounds like two men forced to spend the night together in a bed with a scary snake they
hope will continue to stay asleep!
Bill
> And
> I really have a bad attitude toward ghosts (confounding little
> buggers will suck every drop of energy out of you if given half a
> chance). What I will say is this: when Phaedrus tells a student of
> metaphysics to destroy all intellectual patterns and destroy them
> completely, he is ushering them into nothing more then a new flight of
> stairs in the "graduate school" of the MOQ. If he were to say the
> same thing to a real master of metaphysics, he would be met with
> laughter and a warning not to do it while he was driving on the
> freeway.
Denis:
>[Sigh]. Bill, you're getting Pirsig (and me) wrong. I believe you should
>read the part about Zen students getting the patterns perfect again, and
>perhaps (if you've got some spare time you've ABSOLUTELY no idea what to
>do with), my lasts posts in general (and in particular my last one to
>the LS last month).
Your post about change that followed this was excellent. I also wrote something about
driving and how people learn proper driving skills and then go on automatic pilot (second
nature) from then on. What I think of as "third nature" involves re-awakening those static
patterns for the sake of improving one's driving skills to the point that you really become
an asset on the road. Both second nature and third nature involves "roasting the seeds of
Karma" as they say in the east. Some of the eastern sects are trained to roast the "sunflower
seeds of Karma" and then go for a long snooze. Other sects are trained to roast the seeds and
then feed them to the hungry. Some sects say, "be still and allow all desire to become calm".
Other sects say, "be still and allow all desire to find its proper channel". I just keep working
on my driving skills because it seems like the right thing for me to do at this time.
Denis:
>>BTW, what's a "real master of metaphysics" ?
Well, getting into that would involve waking up that snake!
Bill:
> The position beyond this initial destruction of all intellectual
> patterns is just more patterned reality governed by tightly fixed
> laws. The graduate school of MOQ involves learning to undue these
> laws by scientific means. That would involve various techniques of
> meditation on mind, soul and ways of gaining control over the body.
Denis:
>>There is no graduate school of MOQ (although Bodvar plans on opening
>>one).
Sounds like a good idea. I just hope he doesn't use pork chops as a training device.
Denis:
>>The scientific means you're talking about aren't mentioned in any of
>>Pirsig's books.
>>When intellectual patterns are destroyed, we don't *know* what happens,
>>so "patterned" being an intellectual concept : what do you mean ?
I think it involves this "third nature" I was speaking of. Attending to larger matters of the
Self.
Bill:
> The position beyond this initial destruction of all intellectual
> patterns is just more patterned reality governed by tightly fixed
> laws. The graduate school of MOQ involves learning to undue these
> laws by scientific means. That would involve various techniques of
> meditation on mind, soul and ways of gaining control over the body.
Denis:
>>Anyway, Pirsig doesn't talk about destroying the "intellectual"
>>patterns, but the "static" ones.
He probably means all old static intellectual patterns.
Bill:
> If I thought the goal was to simply destroy all intellectual patterns I would
> ride completely out on a wave of morphine--through the "little death"
> of deep sleep--into the eternal peace of the "big sleep". But I'm not
> so sure it's that easy.
>
Denis:
>>Re-read the part on madness in Lila, there's a statement on suicide
>>there (p. 455)
Still, I'm not so sure it's that easy. Maybe it's my Catholic upbringing but I'd be worried
that I'd wake up in a bad place. Plus, I still have forty years or so to re-work my old static
intellectual patterns. Still got "money to burn" so-to-speak.
Bill:
> Within one of the seven systems of Hindu thought is something they call
> Laya Yoga. It is exclusively reserved for highly intellectual
> students. The teaching involves completely unfolding the fixed map of
> reality mentally (and also experientially), until one understands his true position in
> this living, intelligent universe...and then folding it all back into itself
> by deeply esoteric but-still-logical means. Whether or not anybody ever
> graduates from this school is something I can't say. I'm still
> struggling for the gumption to locate and maintain an impeccable
> filing system for my business. It seems to me that Pirsig ended his public discourse
> on the MOQ precisely at the mid-way point.
>
> Bill
>
Denis:
>>Bill, I don't really know what to make of this post. Have you been
>>convinced by Pirsig or not ? Are you playing the Devil's advocate ? I've
>>got nothing against people criticizing my views, but I don't see what
>>you're aiming at.
>>Mystic-but-Logical reality ? Graduating from mystic schools ? Man, I
>>don't know if it's you or me who's confused, but I get a feeling it's
>>not me... ;)
>>Cheerfully (I've just finished my beer)
>>Denis (aka. Drunk Fish)
Well, just think of me as yer old cosmic bartender.
Denis:
>>PS : I've just found a quote from you which seems to resume your views :
>>"I think the stuff (SQ) is ultimately un-chewable. You can use it to
>>climb on,
>>but to fully consume it, you must let it melt to a liquid and swallow
>>it."
>>Would you care to comment on this ? I wonder if it contradicts what you
>>just said or not...
Call me crazy but I like to follow a jawbreaker candy with a truffle or two.
Denis:
>>PPS : BTW, I'm french, and in French my name is spelled D-E-N-I-S,
"Dennis" is the English spelling. Itsy-bitsy rules, I know, but then I'm
not perfect.
Part of this "attending to the larger matters of the Self" would involve spelling people's
names correctly. Have you noticed my improvement? Anyway, I had this quote I wanted to share
with you. It's from Paramahansa Yogananda's brilliant translation and commentary on
The Bhagavad Gita subtitled: The immortal dialogue between soul and Spirit:
"O Scorcher of Foes (Arjuna), limitless are the manifestations of My divine attributes;
My concise declaration is a mere intimation of My proliferating glorious powers….
But what need hast thou, O Arjuna, for the manifold details of this wisdom? Understand simply:
I, the Unchanging and Everlasting, sustain and permeate the entire cosmos with but one
fragment of My Being!"
Well, so much for little me. It was my intent to get off this "Super Information Hwy" once
and for all a few months back when I did the last of a number of searches for "Pirsig".
Next to nothing had ever come up in the past and then…suddenly…this Lila Squad! So I had to
check you all out and I'm very happy with what I've seen here. Still, I gotta get back to
where I used to be. I shake my head and realize that *years* have gone by since my first
internet post (there were these people defending gossip mongering…see…and they needed a
little scorchin'…see..).
Anyway, I gotta get back full time to the scorchin' of my inner foes and to developing my
forty acres of prime cyberspace farmland. I'm thinking of putting up avocado and fruit trees
and getting a pack of dogs to play with. I wanted a heard of goats
too but figured that would create problems….I thought about sheep also but considering how I've
made enemies among the gossip mongers, that's probably not a good idea either.
So may God bless the Lila Squad. And Phaedrus and Pancho and Lila and Rigel and Jamie.
May God bless us all!
See ya, Elg14 (ret.)
mailto:elg14@earthlink.net
MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:03:07 BST