RATIONAL ROGER (the echo guy) RESPONDS
TO RICH
Rich,
You seem to be arguing with your cousin rather than me. I agree with
virtually everything you write except some of your recent summaries of what
you think I wrote.
RICH:
Rog... aren't 'being', 'becoming', 'cusps' and 'DQ' "something"? I don't
mean some-"thing" in the sense of a physical or mental subject or object,
but in the sense of a "real existent". Pirsig is quite intent on letting the
world know, isn't he, that not only is 'DQ' something, it is EVERYTHING - or
at least "the source of". Even potentiality is 'something'.
ROGER:
I agree with Pirsig that they are best characterized as events rather than
things.
RICH:
Isn't "one quarter" (the newest - and the best) of ultimate reality
conceptualization (intellectualization) itself? - which only takes place
because of 4-ish billion years of solar, terrestrial, floral and faunal
inorganic, biological and social evolution!
ROGER:
Yes. Thinking or conceptualizing is a very high quality characterization of
DQ. The thought or concept is sq. Pirsig covers this in his discussion of
the PRESENT.
RICH:
When I hear all this idealistic
thinking, it seems so sad! Like there is a bone to be picked with anyone who
dares be true to what not only the intellectually experienced component of
their selves tell them (such as that, logically, reality is unknowable), but
also what the AS VERY REAL INORGANIC, BIOLOGICAL AND SOCIAL components of
their experience tell them...
ROGER:
I don't disagree. My point was the SCIENTIFIC METHOD is quite inadequate to
describe and model this.
RICH:
I ate a bowl of cheerios this morning.
It felt great.
Yes - I am absolutely positive it was a bowl of cheerios.
Honey Nut.
ROGER:
Well eat this! (Roger says pointing above at your Cheerio quote). Taste the
same? No? Why? Because your static model or description of the experience
is not the same and entire experience. Thinking the above may be DQ, but it
is not at all the same as eating. My comments were that descriptions of
reality are not the same as the reality they describe. The description is a
part of reality, but it ain't the whole bowl of cheerios.
The other quotes of scientists that you disagreed with were quotes of their
concerns on the inadequacies of intellectual models to replicate all of
experience. They were not negating the ability to experience.
RICH:
What I have difficulty with immediately - and this applies most especially
to Rog's views as I read them - is the concept of 'direct experience' being
before (and apart from?) subjects and objects
ROGER:
Misquote! I AM THE ECHO GUY!! I Am The Echo Guy! i am the echo guy....
theechoguy....
RICH:
I can sort of grasp the idea, if 'direct experience' means 'DQ'. But this
leaves me with a couple of concerns:
1) Is there experience which is "not direct"? If so, what is it, in
logical or empirical terms?
ROGER:
I think not.
RICH:
2) If DQ = D(irect)E(xperience), then experience - the 'most real'
aspect of our selves - is conceptually unknown, undefinable, etc...
But certainly our experiences are quite definable - in terms of
value - and therefore conceptually known.
ROGER:
No, the experience is not the same as the conceptualization of the
experience. Both are experience, but they are not exactly the same.
RICH:
3) I just keep wanting to apply some "substantive" concept to 'direct'
experience. If anything, the word 'experience' has always implied
the existence of an experiencER and that which is experiencED.
ROGER:
Wallah! And so a subject and an object are "experienced."
RICH:
4) Experience necessarily leads to individuation, as no-one will
argue about the uniqueness & inaccessibility of their experiences to
anyone else.
ROGER:
Consciousness is always unitary. Are we part of a greater unitary
consciousness?
RICH:
Perhaps this is a linguistic tangle and someone can suggest a
better term for what you (& P.) are trying to convey by 'direct
experience'.
ROGER:
I suggest "Quality". Original huh?
Later dude. Don't ever let 'em slow you down.
Rog
"The whole is contained in the part."
B. Kosko
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