> ROGER:
The levels are sortings of our conceptual models. They are not sorting
> Reality or DQ itself (which is preconceptual and unsortable). How can you
> critique Pirsig's conceptual cuts on that which has not been conceived
yet?
AVID:
1) I don't think that WE are the only one who can MAKE these conceptual
model, yet we can participate in them [as organs of a complex creature].
2) In all western history of model making, all models started as closed
models containing closed groups. In time as each model evolved the groups
become open and more interlinked then before.
I don't see the advantage to keep it dogmatic and separated, why not "open
it up", even only in our dividing minds so we "let our eyes to adjust to the
haze on both ends".
ROGER:
> I don't think Pirsig would deny that the MOQ could evolve to handle new
> concepts or new layers, just that they are not needed today.
AVID:
There is a strange connection between possibility and need. In my experience
you open up a possibility, you sometimes create the need. To suggest that
the need comes before the actual possibility is a bit naive. It would be
nice to perceive the world in a less centered way, I think that as humanity
we can take it not to be central [as we did with our astronomical point of
view] in our world perception as well, even as awareness.
ROGER:[in another post]
2) SQ is subjectified and objectified patterns. These are conceptual
models that are our best representations of pre-conceptual experience.
AVID:
These SQ [or SPQ as I call them], are the best representation of
pre-conceptual experience, but they are not subjectified and objectified
patterns. Because the whole NEED of MoQ started with subjectified and
objectified patterns, being not good enough to describe and act in this
world. The need to reassemble the giant jigsaw puzzle once again started
from this inadequacy of the SOM.
ROGER:
These are often confused with reality because (to quote the only person I
know of
with a PHD in MOQ, Anthony McWatt) "they have become such a common apparatus
for describing, understanding and analyzing that reality."
AVID:
The word reality [as the word God] is over used, to me reality is what I
face every instant of my life. It is an experience. Whether it is like I
perceive it or not I do not know, but in classifying what is I believe MoQ
is the best metaphysics we have yet. I think that holding a reality separate
from my experience of it will be misleading. So I'll talk of only what I
perceive and think as possible [or impossible]. In this I have to see myself
as SPQ of a biological order, as SPQ of a social order, and find ways to
understand the connection between "these dots on my map". This will give me
a way to capture DQ for a limited time [after it I'll have to update my SPQ]
it can be my ideas [SPQ of cultural/intellectual level], it can be my genes
[SPQ of biological level], it could be laws of my society [SPQ of social
level]. All this is in my eyes reality, and if you tell me this is a mere
shadow of the real thing [Plato's cave all over again], I don't care because
it is all that is from my point of view. AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER THAT IT
IS ONLY MY POINT OF VIEW I'M OK. Then this I can call reality, and it may
contain objects and subjects but not be made of objects and subjects as
primary cut of an SPQ. Why bother to make a revolution if you end up with
the same stuff?
and don't forget to be gentle
Avid
icq 6598359
----- Original Message -----
From: <RISKYBIZ9@aol.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Samstag, 21. August 1999 19:19
Subject: Re: MD Life's not that simple.
> ROGER REPLIES TO AVID ON THE NEXT LEVEL
>
> Hi Avid,
>
> AVID WROTE:
> >1. We don't know how many layers are [here Pirsig is mistaken]. We can
only
> >imagine FROM OUR CURRENT POINT OF VIEW, four layers. But nobody can be
sure
> >that there are more ladder steps in either directions.
>
> :
> AVID:
> >2. If this model is right, then "the next freedom" will be freedom of
> >Cultural SPQ, freedom of beliefs, freedom of ideas, but it will be
managed
> >by Cultural agents [complex creatures of the Cultural plane]
>
> ROGER:
> This sounds like a description of the Intellectual level. But i could be
> wrong.
>
> Rog
>
>
>
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