--- David L Thomas <dlt44@ipa.net> wrote:
> MDers AN OBSERVATION
>
> TOM & ROGER DANCE IN THE MOONBEAMS
> TOM POINTS A RHETORICAL FINGER
> WHILE ROGER EATS A MOONPIES
>
>
> TOM
> > The essense of the rhetoric taught by the sophists
> is the same as the
> > stories told by Pirsig about sitting on the stove,
> etc. These stories,
> > parables,analogies, have been used for ages by
> those who wish to convey the
> > essense of indescribable experiences. In other
> words the failure of logic
> > leaves one no other choice if your intent is to
> accurately pass on the
> > knowledge of those experiences to others and
> future generations. Therefore
> > those teachers often used paradox and logically
> absurd statements to point
> > the student in the direction of Truth.
>
> DAVE
> Thanks for completing the Zen/Rhetorical circle for
> me. As you point out
> Pirsig was faced with preach'n in the Church of
> Reason ("the West") more
> specifically to start with, America. While reading
> ZMM years ago, I, as I
> would guess is the case with most Americans had no
> exposure to Zen, let alone
> any understanding of it. The final illustration in
> the classic Zen story, The
> ten cow or ox herding pictures, "Entering the City
> with Bliss bestowing Hands"
> illustrates the final step in Zen practice is
> bestowing or passing along to
> others the benefits of one's insight. Let's assume
> for a moment that Pirsig
> is trying to pass along his insights of a "heathen
> Eastern
> philosophy/religion(s)" to a predominately
> Christian, logical, and science
> worshipping culture; What method would you use?
> Pirsig chose the rhetorical
> form of the "quest" novel "heavily interlarded with
> philosophical
> ruminations", as one critic put it, and it worked.
> But only up to a point. It
> gained a huge readership, gave him freedom from
> writing tech manuals, but
> feedback from ZMM readers suggested many, while
> intrigued, had extracted
> neither an understanding Quality or Zen from it. I
> surely didn't.
>
> The history of Zen shows it successfully spread by
> dynamically and
> pragmatically adapting its practices to the
> psychology of the culture it was
> addressing. You claim with "Lila" he chose to
> "pander" rather that stay in
> the trenches and fight. I would suggest that Pirsig
> was/is "fighting" but in a
> classic Zen way.
>
> To paraphrase a Japanese Zen koan.
>
> A Zen master of the "No Sword" school was sitting in
> a boat waiting to be
> rowed acrossed a river when a braggart samurai got
> in the boat and proceeded
> to taunt the master, challenging him to a duel,
> claiming the "No Sword" school
> was a logical absurdity. After repeatedly declining
> the master finally agreed
> but suggested rather than delay the other passengers
> they should be let off in
> at an island in the middle of the river. When they
> arrived at the island the
> braggart jumped out first seeking to have a few more
> seconds to prepare. The
> master placed one foot on the shore and violently
> shoved the boat out into the
> river, winning the contest without a blow.
>
> Zen practitioners claim it is the essence of
> Buddhism. I think the argument
> can be successfully made that the MoQ in "Lila" is
> the essence of Zen. A
> further distillation, if you will, but one that is
> rhetorically tuned to the
> psychology of Western culture. The first rule of
> preach'n is you have to get
> a congregation, ZMM got the passengers in the boat
> and rowed them to the
> island, "Lila" shoved the boat back into the river.
>
> The question now is: Is the West going to remain on
> the island or learn how to swim?
>
> If "Lila" panders to the static patterns of Western
> culture in order to be
> heard, the modern Zen response might be "And your
> point was?" Zen unashamedly
> claims to be pragmatically oriented to one end,
> enlightenment, the means are
> inconsequential and while often appearing cruel,
> uncaring, or nonsensical in
> the end they are not.
>
> ROGER
> > 1) DQ is [everyday] Direct Experience.
> > 2) Reality is composed of Direct Experience.
> > 3) Conceptualizing is one such experience.
> Conceptualizing is the
> > experience of building models of ourselves and our
> world. Conceptualizing
> > builds static, shallow (though extremely useful)
> patterns out of dynamic
> > prepatterned reality.
> > 4) The conceptualized, patterned world is a model
> built from DQ [events emanating from the pool of
> ultimate reality. Quality]
>
> DAVE
> Admire your patient snipping, quoting, and
> commentary. [Brackets are my
> additions] Don't think you should abandon the
> "everyday" position in that I
> feel the SQ/DQ LS discussion is about this very
> point. I have been
> concentrating my reading over the past few months on
> Zen and Zen history and
> have come to the conclusion that Zen "enlightenment"
> or "satori" is in part
> about changing ones point of view such that DQ is
> able to become an intuitive
> part of every day existence. Believe Pirsig suggests
> the same.
>
> Pirsig's references to hurricanes, heart attacks,
> and hot stoves is merely a
> way to rhetorically and practically show that
> everyone does and has
> experienced DQ. but that static patterns can and do
> become so pervasive that
> the everyday experience of DQ is overlooked, lost,
> or shielded from perception.
>
> The final brackets are an attempt to keep within
> your four statements the
> limits of DQ/SQ as they are still, for any
> individual or group, just a portion
> of the ultimate reality, Quality, which is as a
> whole unknown and unknowable.
>
>
> But you could be wrong, and so might I.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
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>
> dave- i am blind and do not know how you got my email address, but
you must delete it from your address book, now please, as it makes my
email very difficolt for me to use!! bjeanboop@yahoo.com
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