ROGER FINALLY GETS TO GLENN'S POST
AND ADDS A PS FOR DENIS
Sorry it has taken me soooo long to respond to all the mail, I have been
traveling a lot, and am way behind.
GLENN WROTE:
>You seem to be answering from the strict point of view of MOQ's first
principles -
>what's primal instead of what's derivative - what REALITY *really* is
instead of
>what we believe it to be.
ROG:
Yes. Exactly. I have been trying to make this distinction . I cannot
understand why so many gloss over it.
GLENN:
Pirsig Quote #2
>When we speak of an external world guided by evolution it's normal to assume
>that it is really there, is independent of us and is the cause of us. The MOQ
>goes along with this assumption because experience has shown it to be an
>xtremely high quality belief for our time. But unlike materialist
>metaphysics, the MOQ does not forget that it is still just a belief - quite
>different from beliefs in the past, from beliefs of other present cultures,
>and possibly from beliefs we will all have in the future. What will decide
>which belief prevails is, of course, its quality.
>This is another illuminating quote. If you were trying to contrast the
difference
>between materialist metaphysics and MOQ, then your answer is appropriate. MOQ
>treats the external world as real but not primal - it's still just a belief.
>But oh what a belief! The belief in external objects is so powerful and
universal
>that it is elevated to the highest form of good: a truth of the mythos!
Objects
>are REAL, by popular demand. The votes of the culture are in, and the votes
are
>overwhelming: the EXTERNAL WORLD is REAL. The success of this belief is
verified
>and bolstered every day, making it very easy to forget belief as even
necessary.
>And the metaphysics (SOM) which proposed this way of thinking is also
exalted as
>true. By inference the split between subjective and objective is true, the
current
>prevailing mythos proclaims! It's as true now as it was before humans walked
the
>earth. In fact if we could point to an author of subject/object metaphysics,
we'd
>say she/he discovered a truth, albeit a metaphysical one, about the world.
> And if you think 'concepts' cannot be considered real or true, especially
in an
> SOM mythos where 'substance' is king, consider Newton's Law of Gravity.
Despite
> what Pirsig personally believes, the vast majority of people in Western
culture
>today believe Newton discovered the Law of Gravity. That's why it's referred
to as
> a 'law' instead of a 'theory'.
ROG:
Yes, concepts are quite real.
GLENN:
>Now what if MOQ really caught on and supplanted SOM and became entrenched in
the
>mythos like SOM is now? Would patterns of quality from each of Pirsig's
levels
>seem, in the new mythos, as real as chairs and rocks do in the current
mythos?
>Yes. Would meta-concepts like Pirsig's levels even seem true and real? Yes.
And
>inally would the new mythos think that Pirsig discovered MOQ? Yes.
>I hope this helps clarify both our positions. Am I seeing your position
better
>now? Are you seeing mine? Let me know.
ROG:
Yes, though you SEEM to be basing discovery on 'truth' . I am basing
discovery/creation on 'Quality'. Based on Quality there is no final TRUE
answer. There are only better answers. Each of which needs to be true. A
thousand years from now I hope the MOQ and gravity have all been replaced a
dozen times by better theories. Each 'created' and judged by QUALITY or
Direct Experience.
Do you see the difference? Am I misrepresenting your view? Sorry if
so....please help me understand....
Roger
PS -- Denis, the MOQ doesn't deny truth any more than it denies substance or
concepts. ( I believe I am cross posting, but it is only because I am not
addressing the MF'ing topic, just this one issue.) Truth in the MOQ is
locally consistent intellectual patterns of quality. (Even here Glenn, I do
not deny truth, I just place it as a subset of the good.)
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