jc,tre,risky mders
JC welcome aboard, you ask;
> So what the heck do you guys usually talk about anyway?
Just stuff like this, from every imaginable angle.
> (disaproving of "novel" and FICTION!) carries a whiff of somebody upset
> about the overturning of the moral order.
Nah, I love novels, fiction, and philosophy, particularly Pirsig's but here's
the rub.
You're right that, technically, the MoQ is just a metaphysics not a complete
philosophy, which is part of the problem. In Lila we read:
"one of the things that Phædrus had long pondered and why he finally settled
on metaphysics. If he could find a broad enough foundation, one that would
encompass all of the existing structure, he wouldn't have to rebuild at all"
Just like the MoQ's intellectual level, a metaphysics, can't do very much
without the other branches of philosophy (or levels) to carry out actions in
accord with its principles. If understand this quote, however, Phaedrus is
suggesting that the "existing (philosophic) structure" would somehow be used
in place of "rebuild(ing) it all" But if this is to be; just the task of
finding a few branches that somewhat correspond to the MoQ is monumental.
Couple that with the classic MoQ response, such as this one by T.R and
monumental is small:
> Anyone who would read Pirsig for the purpose of comparing his work to the
> work of other philosophers would do well to attempt to break their own
> static filters to experience a little of the chaos of Dyanamic Quality and
> then read it again.
Ok, so I need to find some Dynamic Quality, which is:
“ Dynamic Quality is a stream of quality events going on for ever and ever,
always the cutting edge of the present. But in the wake of this cutting edge
are static patterns of value. These are memories, customs and patterns of
nature.....” RMP-S.O.D.V.Paper pp 12.
If I understand this quote, if I'm alive I've got it. My experience can be
nothing other than a continuous stream of DYNAMIC quality events. As I look
out over the lake on this crisp fall day it appears very similar now as it did
just an instant ago. Its a stable pattern of values but no matter how hard I
imagine I can't slice it small enough so there is no dynamic change. A leaf
ruffles here, there, the shadows move, a deer's ear twitches, my eye blinks,
one hydrogen atom moves about yea far, what's the next word, starts with .D ......Dynamic.
But I need some more Dynamic. How do I get it? Pirsig's only sure fire
"empirically tested" suggestion is peyote. Given I was raised on an Indian
reservation (Crow) just over the hill from the Cheyenne reservation were he
was "enlightened" I have a slightly different perspective. My perspective was
watching a small group of my of grade school Indian classmates, who from time
to time, had and used peyote on the school bus. They were the same group, now
all mostly all dead or in mental institutions, who sniffed leaded gasoline out
of parked cars to stay high. Unlike Bill, I'll admit I've inhaled my share of
alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana; and can honestly say that this is not the way
to Dynamic quality for me.
Maybe I should do some "Zen." You know the classic "hippie" stuff, drop out,
shave my head, find a master, and spent the next 15 years begging and chanting.
Or possibly "the stop an smell the roses" stuff. Climb a mountain, buy another
bike, get my daughter to ride with me, and then zone out on philosophy while
we ride and pay little or no attention to her.
A little tongue in cheek, but the point is one does not "seek" dynamic quality
one "encounters" it. T.R.'s almost right when he says one must "break their
own static filters". I prefer to think that a more reasonable project is to
"rebuild, or tune" them. If you're going to maintain your life using the MoQ
you have to understand you're using a "maintenance manual" with all the
sections ripped out except the general description. Great for finding the
carburetor, good luck on getting the idle set.
The point of the original "Putnam's Values" post and a few snips from "Realism
with a Human Face" was that there are value based "maintenance manuals" out
there "in the existing structure" which may have the necessary sections to
develop a complete "value" based moral philosophy which includes the MoQ. But
it will not happen if one spent all ones time pouring over ZAMM and Lila. The
clues are there, the rest isn't, I looked.
I fully agree with Platt that RMP was the first to publish the " beginning
assumption that “Quality is the primary empirical reality of the world.”
(Chap.5) “And if Quality is the primary reality of the world then that means
morality is also the primary reality of the world.” (Chap.7)
But putting those principles into practice is easier said than done. Remember
Phaedrus said "HE wouldn't have to rebuild at all" he didn't say you or some
else wouldn't have to!
Good Day
dlt
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