Gents: A few words about the moral compass debate, and stuff...
> PLATT WROTE
> I see the overall questions as still being, "Does the MOQ provide us
> with a useful moral compass? If so, how can it help us decide
> moral/ethical issues?"
>
[David Buchanan] As I understand it, the MOQ IS a moral
compass. It describes the structure and process of the universe as a
moral one. It can help us decide moral/ethical issues as long as we
realize those issues are small a small fraction of one static level. I
think this is part of the reason some folks have confessed confusion.
Pirsig's use of the word "morality" should not be confused with social
conventions. The discussions of moral relativity can be cleared up using
the MOQ, but Pirsig's ideas about value, morality and Quality go way
past that. The MOQ is simply a much larger thing that "ethics",
althought such issues are certainly included in the larger picture.
> PLATT WROTE
> Of course, nearly all the posts on this site touch on these
> questions to one degree or another. But few that I recall tackle a
> moral issue head on and use the MOQ to solve it. In fact, the only
> one I can remember was posted by Bo a long time ago on the
> subject of eugenics, although there may be others I've missed.
> (There was a long debate about the wisdom of dropping the atom
> bomb to end WWII, but nothing resolved in MOQ terms.)
>
[David Buchanan] Oh, Platt. I'm so hurt. You've forgotten many
cases where I've used the MOQ to unravel the morality of a situation. I
had developed answers the bombing of Japan, the problem with Fascism,
the President's impeachment and even the reasons why movies are social
and therefore less moral than books. Maybe the problem in NOT with
understanding how or why the MOQ works as moral compass, so much as a
distaste for its conclusions. Maybe you get it, but you don't like it.
Such a radically new vision of reality is expected to shake things up.
Truth is, conventional morality doesn't rank all that highly in the MOQ.
Only dirt and flesh is below it.
> PIRSIG WROTE
> "When inorganic patterns of reality create life the Metaphysics of
> Quality postulates that they've done so because it's "better" and
> that this definition of "betterness," this beginning response to
> Dynamic Quality, is an elementary unit of ethics upon which all
> right and wrong can be based."
>
[David Buchanan] This quote is a perfect example, and its just
one of many. The "betterness" that created life is morality in the
Pirsigian sense. Its got nothing to do with "ethics" in the usual sense
of the word. The organic "betterness" is different than social
"betterness" or intellectual "betterness" because they are seperate and
discreet levels of reality. Recognizing the differences between the
levels of values is the heart of Pirsigian moral sensability.
> "Morality is not a simple set of rules. It's a very complex struggle
> of conflicting patterns of values."
>
[David Buchanan] yea, that's it! A very complex struggle of
conflicting patterns of values. The trick is to choose the right values
in any given conflict. Pirsig describes our reality as nothing but
static patterns of values. So if one simply does the math, that means
our reality is nothing but an ethical activity.
[David Buchanan] Roger, I resent your assertion that I
"conveniently dismissed everything" you said with mere labels. I worked
very, very hard to dismiss everything you said. There was nothing easy
about it. Ba Dump Bump. :) But seriously, your response to this "moral
compass" issue illustrates the problem with you position. It renders the
MOQ mute and obsolete. How can you think that Pirsig's "inquiry into
morals" comes to the conclusion that we can not solve moral dilemmas?
How can a description of a completely moral universe leave us in such a
mysterious moral vaccuum. We could go round and round about the
nuts-n-bolts and debate fine points for the rest of time, but the fact
remains that you vision of the MOQ doesn't seem to work as a explanatory
tool. In spite of your invocations of pragmatism, that solipsitic dog
don't hunt. Its not that I don't love you anymore. We just disagree.
DMB
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