Howdy again,
(BTW, if I'm breaking anything in nettiquette, please tell me. I'm new at
all of this.)
clark says: Subatomic particles do not make choices.
Coughlan says: This goes against the whole theory of MOQ. You are assuming
the above statement. MOQ states that particles DO make choices. So does
quantum mechanics. They value certain probabilities over others. Isn't that
"making a choice"?
BTW, what do you mean by "making a choice"?
Peter says:
So our world is the product of our mind!
Clark says:
Our world is not the product of our mind.
Coughlan says: I'm sure you guys know the concept of Mu. Sometimes a
question is fundamentally bad. Like: Is it a wave OR a particle? Is it the
color blue OR yellow? (when it's really green.) You fall into a trap if you
ask it and you only have the answers of Y and N.
Question: Is the universe a product of our mind?
Answer: What do you mean by 'universe', 'product' and 'mind'? Fix the
question. Until then: Mu.
David says: We seem to be falling into a trap here. Trying to explain what
"reality" is. There's a difference between what reality "is" and how we
percieve that reality.I don't believe any of us can truly know what reality
is. It's beyond us. Too big. I do think that we can (and do) have our
"perception" of what reality is. And THAT is what's being described as
created or not created by our minds.
Coughlan says: Yep, this is a trap. Remember, in MOQ it goes like this:
Quality ----> DQ
|
|
\/
SQ---->1)inorganic
2)organic
3)social
4)intellectual
We will never truly "define" reality (quality) because the intellectual
paradigm (#4) we are stuck in cannot go outside of itself. We cannot "know"
what all of everything truly "is" because we are not "it". This is like
asking what it would feel like to be a rock.
Not only that, but Q is the reality outside and including ISQ. That's why we
can be fooled into thinking that ISQ can define everything, because it can
define a part of Q.
Where does "mind" fit in all of this? Is "mind" the meat? If so, it's
organic. Is "mind" intellectual? If so, it's IDEAS and therefore are on the
intellectual plain.
When we say 'mind', we mean "self". Self is another way of saying that you
are a subject and everything else is objects. But MOQ hasn't even defined
the terms of "subject" and "object" yet. Just like there isn't any "God" or
"no God" (in the creator sense).
Also, subject/object is a Mu question, just like wave/particle, just like
God/no God, just like Static/Dynamic. It is both and neither at the same
time. It just depends which questions you ask. And what is the most useful
to you in the ISQ pattern at that point in time.
BTW, Free will/Determinism: same thing...
Go nuts.
Sincerely,
Matt Coughlan
P.S. All of these contradictions...what if they aren't "wrong"?
1) Logic assumes at its bottom level: Thou shalt assume that logic is
correct if you use it correctly.
2) Logic states: Thou shalt not assume anything.
Go nuts more.
>From: "pclark" <pclark@ipa.net>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: MD Random patterns.
>Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:26:57 -0600
>
>David, Peter, et al.
> Sitting here bored out of my skull I feel the need to comment on some of
>your observations:
>
>Peter says:
> So our world is the product of our mind!
>
>Clark says:
> Our world is not the product of our mind. Our world is the product of
>the possibilities generated from the beginning.
>
>David says:
> Subjectivity is a feature of every static pattern. Even sub-atomic
>particles
> > make choices in the MOQ, no?
>
>Clark says:
> Static patterns are objective. Subatomic particles do not make choices.
>They simply fall into a possible niche that has been prepared for them by
>the previous functioning of Quality. Someone has called this process
>"deterministic disorder" I think chaos is a good name. This is the process
>that Pirsig used to turn around causation from A causes B to B values
>precondition A. After the long trip through the life of the universe and
>awareness and sentience and the resultant complexity the end result is
>still deterministic although it may look subjective to us. Ken Clark
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