Struan Hellier wrote:
>
> Rich Pretti,
>
> Insulting as well as confused. Nothing changes.
>
> As if I would even consider a challenge to, "completely and clearly explain the Metaphysics of
> Quality." Why would I want to? What if I were to reverse it and ask you to completely and clearly
> explain everything that is wrong with the MoQ? Would you be motivated to do it? No, of course not. A
> 'wanker' I may be, but only a fool would accuse me of lacking intelligence and sophistication. That
> I shall demonstrate with great delight when you have finished your 'work.' Get it right, or be
> intellectually torn to shreds like so many times before (its all in the archives for those who doubt
> it).
>
> Now collect your toys and get back in your play pen.
>
> Struan
Hi Struan and all,
Just to start with, I wish to express, that for now I'm not going to take your
stand nor anyoneelse's; also it's not a direct adress to specifically this post
of yours. Only I felt like taking up some of the points of the correspondencies
between you and all the others, you chose to quarrel with.
It is quite natural, that the large majority of the people on this list are at
least convinced, that there is something (positive and important) about the
ideas of Robert M. Pirsig, just as I am,and therefore taking a pro-Moq stand.
For this reason, I consider your contributions in general as not only beneficial
for an understanding of the MoQ, if not even indispensable. I intended to
suggest a sort of 'advocatus diaboli' discussion in MF in the past, about some
of the seemingly weak(or maybe just unclear) points of the MoQ in order to
clarify them, but I droped it for the reason nobody would have liked to take the
'advocatus diaboli'-stand and moreover could have felt attacked personally
during this argument. We are here to discuss Pirsigs work and the claim to
discuss the MoQ means also truefully to judge all the 'pro's' and the 'contra's'
that come up. Otherwise we're running the risk of becoming a Robert M. Pirsig
fan-club or sort of a dogmatic MoQ-sect; none of both could be the interest of
any member of this forum. In a way I do consider myself to be fan of Pirsig's
work and I admire his braveness to take a stand outside the usual way of
thinking, nevertheless and in agreement with David Sater, I believe the worst
service we could do to Pirsigs MoQ is to blindly defend it against all critics.
Pirsigs dictum 'the pencil is mightier than the pen' should also be applied to
the MoQ and I'm sure he would be the strongest supporter of the mentioned dictum
in any sense, in case he would raise his voice on this subject once.
But in referrence to the famous dictum of Einstein (1918), I recommend you to
ask yourself, what is really your intention and motivation to take part in this
forum the way you do.
quotation taken from Pirsig's ZAMM, beginning of chapter 10:
[...]
In the temple of science are many mansions -- and various indeed are they that
dwell therein and the motives that have led them there.
Many take to science out of a joyful sense of superior intellectual power;
science is their own special sport to which they look for vivid experience and
the satisfaction of ambition; many others are to be found in the temple who have
offered the products of their brains on this altar for purely utilitarian
purposes. Were an angel of the Lord to come and drive all the people belonging
to these two categories out of the temple, it would be noticeably emptier but
there would still be some men of both present and past times left inside -- . If
the types we have just expelled were the only types there were, the temple would
never have existed any more than one can have a wood consisting of nothing but
creepers -- those who have found favor with the angel -- are somewhat odd,
uncommunicative, solitary fellows, really less like each other than the hosts of
the
rejected.
What has brought them to the temple -- no single answer will cover -- escape
from everyday life, with its painful crudity and hopeless dreariness, from the
fetters of one's own shifting desires. A finely tempered nature longs to escape
from his noisy cramped surroundings into the silence of the high mountains where
the eye ranges freely through the still pure air and fondly traces out the
restful contours apparently built for eternity.
[...]
(Concerning Einstein the quotation is complete)
As I can watch it almost daily in politics (That is for me mostly the german
parliament) it is a very easy task for the political opposition to just critize,
whatever the government is planning or doing and moreover it is destructive. It
is destructive with full intention, because it is a natural interest of the
opposition to let the present governing party gaining as less 'points' as
possible in order to look better in the eyes of the audience (society). No heros
are needed to do so! In referrence to this, I'm finding it most supicious,that,
although you claim to be unaffected and objective, still take such strong
interest in various issues of this site. I may say at least, that for most of us
it is easy to shred to pieces almost every idea coming up, when you are educated
in the use of syllogistic and dialectic methods and one can debate until
eternity about many philosopic systems without gaining total consensus. In the
end any position remains dependant on, wether you like the named philosophic
system or not.
So in case my suspicions as mentioned above are unjustified, Struan, I'd like to
apologize for them and wish to express, that you are still welcomed as far as
I'm concerned. I'd very much appreciate your comment on this, but I'm not going
to join in that sort of splitting hairs about the MoQ not only for the reason,
that English is not my first language (you may have guessed ;-) ) but also I do
believe that in doing so not much is gained. I hope some of the old members will
take some effort on this subject too and help to find a 'win-win'-platform for
all of us.
With best wishes to all,
JoVo
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:00:44 BST