----- Original Message -----
From: <RISKYBIZ9@aol.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2000 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: MD Genes, Memes, Darwin and Lemarck
> ROGER ADDS INPUT TO JONATHAN, KENNETH AND PETER ON A TOTALLY COOL THREAD
> Memes arise due to man's unique ability to imitate. This is an extremely
> difficult process that we take for granted, but that is rare in other
species
> (though it is seen in a very limited form in some birds). Note that
> imitating is quite different than learning. Most animals can learn by
> observing others. They can learn what to fear or where to eat, but they
> cannot learn behavior that is not innate. Humans on the other hand, are
> what Susan Blackmore refers to in The Meme Machine as 'consummate
imitative
> generalists' that can copy behaviors that are completely alien. Indeed,
what
> seems to be innate in us is our ability to imitate.
<< Roger,
I joined this list in order to get more info about a topic I wish to present
to
you all, very soon.
In order to getting acquained with you all and to know how you all stand to
memetics I wish to add the following to your answer to Jonathan.
Don 't get me wrong, I am maby a memetisist, I don 't have all the answers,
all is open to debate...
Imitation is indeed a very difficult process but like the memetisist I am, I
wish
to say, that still in the field of memetics we ain 't certain of imitation
is that
important.
If you have read, the Meme Machine by Susan Blackmore like you cited you
did, you will have noticed there is somewhat a contradiction in her story.
I quote Liane Gabora www.chass.utoronto.ca/epc/srb/srb/moreonmemes.html
< The dramatic increase in brain size began two and a half million years
ago.
It is here that hopes of pulling off the ' imitation drives culture '
thesis takes
a nosedive.
Blackmore correctly notes that the archeological record reveals a sudden
' increase ' in tool variety at this time. She does not seem to be aware
that this
contradicts the thesis of her book.
That is, if imitation were the bottleneck to culture, then prior to the
origin of
culture there would have been variation everywhere, and the onset of imita-
tion would have funneled this variation in a few of the most useful
directions.
To bolster the thesis that imitation is the cultural bottleneck with
archeological
evidence, Blackmore would have had to find a period of time where tool
variety sharply ' decreased '. >
To my knowledge there is no such period found.
The evidence Blackmore cites is in fact consistent with the thesis that
creativity was the bottleneck to culture.
In my opinion, and that is only my own personal viewpoint on this, it has
something to do with a lineair dichotomy, a structural issue of opposition
between what is regarded as " collective " and to what something is " indi-
vidual or personal ". ( Like I said this is a constant idea in the interest
which
I have in memetics_the opposition between collective and individual.)
Imitation_ is collective, all of us are doing the same things (genetic or
meme-
tic driven) to put our culture and society forward. We imitate eachother and
maby that is an innate thread to humans.
Of course, you can argue where is the progress if we all are doing the same
things.
So, creativity_is individual, all of us are doing different things (genetic
or meme-
tic driven) to push the culture and our society forward. In a way we are
doing
it for our self- interest; once again genetic or memetic driven is the
question.
The progress is here obviously_perhaps on an strict individual bias put it
goes " forward ".
To get along in society, human individuals, like myself are tired of waiting
for
something to happen. We take our own decisions. Political, social and yes
maby cultural traits and habits are not my cop of thea. They are to slow,
they
act upon old ideas, old structures,...upon old systems which are in my view
Darwinian in concept. We have to built constructions out of Lamarckian pat-
terns.
There is in both dispositions a notion of " evolution ", but where in the
second ( individual) selection and variation are more visible as such, are
those terms ' repressed ' in the first, due to " collective " ( social/
political/ cultural/
religious etc) patterns. Like I did mention before, evolution works
fractally.
And that is because of the speed like you mention, social patterns evolve
mush faster than biological patterns. That is, memetic evolution as she is
Lamarckian acts far more faster than the genetic Darwinian one.
To get a clear picture you have to transmit terms like society/ collective
etc
into " individuality ", that is don 't look at the term as a bunch of
individuals,
but look at them as one single entity.
You will be surprised by the outcome of such a exercise...>>
EDGE website !? Links !? Please let me know, all new info is welcome...
Thanks,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are) connected
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