Roger, mem(e)bers,
Here is a post concerning the thread MD genes, Memes,....
The question if imitation, creativity or transmission is the bottleneck of
culture was raised on the Memetic Discussion list.
If you want more extracts from this, give me a call....
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence H. de Bivort <debivort@umd5.umd.edu>
To: <memetics@mmu.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Imitation or transmission?
>
> Good morning,
>
> Diana, you have put finger on two of the key differences among
> memeticists: whether memes should be viewed a mere cultural analogs to
> genes (and their consequent linkage to ideas of natural selection), and
> whether memes should be viewed as 'natural' objects that are 'just doing
> their thing.'
>
> I have suggested and continue to believe, that linking memes patterns and
> roles to those of genes does not serve us, and in my own work, we have
> long since moved past this point. Yes, the analogy was initially useful as
> a brainstorming device, but it turned out that that was all it was.
>
> On the second question, we have simply made a pragmatic, definitional
> decision to come at memes from the engineering POV. We could come to more
> interesting understandings of memes this way. Having done this -- reached
> an understanding of the design qualities and properties of memes -- it
> then allowed us to tackle many of the questions posed in this list, such
> as, _why_ do some beliefs spread, and not others; how should we view the
> deterioration of fidelity of the belief as it spreads; what happens when
> two or more incompatible memes come into contact, etc.
>
> We chose not to get into the actual brain cognition mechanics, as science
> still seems pretty up in the air about how the brain really works, or at
> least how cognition and the distinctions betweenn conscious and
> unconscious processes work, and as from the point of view of memes that is
> a more general question rather than one of memetics. We try to follow the
> thinking and the discoveries in this field with great interest.
>
> Memetics, it seems to me, is a wide-open field inwhich many different
> approaches and foci are possible, but it is still a field in formation and
> so there is much argumentation about what it comprehends and what its
> tools and language of analysis should be. My view is that it should be a
> big tent, all welcome, and the contributions of all available for
> consideration on their own rather than doctrinaire merits. Which is why I
> like this list, fragmentation and all. The area missing from this list,
> and properly so, IMO, is that of engineering.
>
> Lawrence de Bivort
> The Memetics Group
>
>
> On Sat, 10 Jun 2000, Diana Stevenson wrote:
>
> >Mark wrote:
> >
> ><Can you describe the entity being transmitted? Can you then link the
> >entity to natural selection?>
> >
> >Is memetics confined to natural selection? Is Coca Cola vs. Pepsi or
Nike
> >vs. Addidas about natural selection? Or is it about memetic engineering?
> >
> >Natural selection has been compromised since the invention of
agriculture,
> >and now we have genetic engineering also. Do do we have to stick to the
> >natural selection model for memes?
> >
> >I can think of many memes which are widely copied by I'm not sure how
they
> >can be linked to natural selection. Whole national cultures have changed
on
> >the whim of the sovereign, for example.
>
>
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>
> ===============================================================
> This was distributed via the memetics list associated with the
> Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission
> For information about the journal and the list (e.g. unsubscribing)
> see: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit
>
>
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