----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <DGlover@centurytel.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2000 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: MD Re:MEMES
> Hello Roger, Kenneth and everyone
>
> Thank you all for your well thought out responses. I find I am having a
> very
> difficult time making the connection between memes and the MOQ, so I
> would like to go back to Roger's definition of the term meme. Forgive
> the digression.
>
> "Memes are defined as any
> social pattern, behavior or thought that is imitatable. Examples include
> songs, tools, techniques, strategies, beliefs, ideas, religions, roles,
> principles, styles, morals, and virtually anything else making up human
> society."
Hi Dan,
I see your dilemma !!
The quote Peter gave, however, and I checked the posts concerning memes
on the Moq for that, is not complete. And I , for one, did not mention it
either, though. Sorry.
The thing is, Peter 's quote is right, but one thing is missing, and that
is, that
those examples have to lead to some behavior/ action which is than trans-
missible throughout culture/ society.
Like love is a biological trait but many of the behaviors associated with
love are transmissible cultural traits, those things, giving flowers, saying
I love you,...are the MEMES !!
In Moq terms it would be something like that_ Biological patterns ( ensure
offspring) gave rise to some Inorganic patterns which than can be trans-
mitted throughout society as memes, which people eventually imitate and
which are than propagated.
And I don 't think you should equate memes with patterns of value, though.
There are meme- complexes which we could call as such but those are then
already evolved, that is processed/ encoded/ stored and recalled a thousand
times before.
Each complex consist out of 2 to a thousand particular memes working
together as one whole. Like your definition of Quality is a meme- complex,
it consist out of a number seperate issues combined together.
But if you speak about Quality as a term in general it is as such a meme,
not
a complex. It becomes a complex if you investigate whereout the memes are
built.
IMO_ memes give rise to patterns of value and are in that way independent
entities_making themselves known to humans in order to make up patterns
of value in order to propagate them (memes) further.
That is, BEHIND the MOQ patterns of value there are independent entities
( memes) which gave rise to concepts, ideas, beliefs, etc which in the end
form patterns of value by which humans live in no way independent, because
all sorts of other meme- complexes/ memes/ patterns of a greate value form
obstacles to do otherwise.
And Dan, the MOQ explains not erroneously being as a human completely
unaware of imitation_ the MOQ is not wrong, though, just a little bit,
excuse me for the term, badly chosen I know, ignorant.
If you were aware of which thought, of which meme, of which pattern of
value would come up next inside your mind you could contravene them.
In a sense, that would be against the selfish nature of the memes, no !?
And if memes act in no way selfish, than your notion would mean that memes
has a forsight, and that is something we excluded a long time ago.
By the way, some indications, are telling us an opposite story.
But, what you wrote, would mean that your behavior should precede the
mind and that is contrary to all what we ( I) understand about memetics !
The mind imposes behavioral traits upon the body ( and on itself for that
matter) to act in a specific way as needed.
If you were using a chainsaw choppin ' off trees and you do come to close
to your own legs your mind would give you a warning sign. Your mind
will ' act' before you were left standing there with no legs !
If behavior was left alone we were all dead a long time ago_ the mind is
in control !!
And your definition of the term meme, in the light of the MOQ, as a meme-
tisist I agree.
Memes are us, they give us the picture of our self and this image is one and
the same for all humans. But we are different in that respect that each of
us
sees himself with their own eyes. Each of us has personal memes consisting
out of personal ( genetic) hardware, personal learning and interests and a
personal memory, all can be memes/ complexes and tricks and hooks I
know...
But if you would draw a general picture of man, it would be indeed the
same everywhere. IMO I think you make the same mistake which many of
us make, that is, you look at the general image where you have to look for
what is BEHIND the picture.
We do not fail to be different, we are different in that respect that each
of
us ' believes ' what his/ hers memes tells him to believe in order to propa-
gate the info concerned further. For you, that is the QUALITY of the MOQ,
your ' memes '/ your patterns of value are ( still) fighting the new info
and
right they are...they make you as you are...THEY ARE YOU !!
And those ideas, yours, do not anything to memetic theory as such, just
the notion that you fight memetics is important. In order to do so, the info
about memes and the MOQ is spread. How do you do it, why, when and
with what, that kind of stuff is important and eventually it will spread out
to
others on this list. They will ask themselves the question, what makes Dan
think like that...and they will be hooked both by the MOQ and by the
Memes, like me...
And morals are IMO not memes. Memetics has a lot to do with moral
consequences concerning the implications of memetics on human behavior.
Morals are patterns of value, no !?
So, in that respect, you can change them, they will change if new info is
added or if info is pulled back.
There is a difference between the moral implications of Humanrights and
the ideology of the Humanrights. The first is very good and a pattern of
value, the second is questionable. Do we impose Humanrights upon nations
which do not feel mush about people !? Is that a good thing !? I wonder...
I will post an issue on that shortly !!
I hope you see a clear sky...
Many regards,
Kenneth
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