Hi Kenneth
Hi everyone
Kenneth you wrote:
People can 't bare total freedom. In total freedom we are drawn from all the others, with them we " make " ourselves.
Richard:
I agree about TOTAL freedom, but couldn’t total freedom be defined as the right to choose which society you join? I guess that in a way, all those on this discussion group have formed their own little society with rules etc. TOTAL freedom doesn’t exist as that’s all about complete sole survival but the freedom to choose what you do with life is the type of freedom people love, and seek. This is what I would define as total freedom.
Kenneth:
By the way, personally I don 't like that very much, but do you really think that the Social care for one bit about the Intellect/ Politics !? Oh yes, like you mention, when the Intellect treatens a take- over of Society, but is that not already done !?
Richard:
People care about their choices and their freedom to exercise those choices. Perhaps by default they also care about intellect and politics? Intellect has partly taken over society but not totally, society still holds some cards (retail dollars, strikes, etc.)
Kenneth:
Who do you think are calling the shots here !?
Society has a dice to role, but they don 't use it, because are simple lives are more important than the society we are living in, more important than the governement which is rulling us_ we only see the Intellect/ politics as something to compete with if the Intellect/ politics are treaten our lives, when our rights are trampled under their feet.
But, again, those rights are the feedback of something which originally started from out Society, there has to be ' something ' there so that the Intellect can formulate new laws. I don 't see how the Intellect can for- mulate new laws upon ' things out of the blue ' !?
Richard:
IMO you are suggesting that the intellect formulates it’s laws from a consideration of social laws? I think that it appears this way as both laws have the same origin (the values of organic systems) and so to a degree they appear similar. I don’t believe that social laws have any real action on the determining of intellectual laws, and the real source of confusion is that society still holds power in election thus reducing the intellects power. Governments will often adopt “socially popular” laws near election time in an attempt to get votes. Such laws LOOK like intellectual laws but really they are social laws. Intellect ignores society.
Kenneth:
Failing of education !? Yes, there you are quite right, but it is a failure of th
e Social not of the Intellect ! IMO, I don 't think with just changing the view that education is not cool you will solve the problem. Showing them the rewards !? Which ones, those of the industries polluting our atmosphere, the stupid factories, the Mc- Donalds jobs !? People of today, IMO are trapped by the inate split of Avant- garde and Kitch.
Richard:
I agree they are trapped, but the trapping is that they want avant-garde and they have kitch. The reward you ask me to define is the ability to attain avant-garde (people who have what they want care not for pollution, look at the U.S contribution to the world powers meeting to discuss methods for decreasing carbon gases and you’ll see proof of that!). I agree that the current failings are those of the social and not the intellect but the intellect is going to need to sort it out if it is to gain what it wants: I.E. people being slaves to the economy while kept happy with the rewards that allow the fulfillment’s of the dream of nice car, beautiful partner, lovely children, designer clothes, large bank balance, good pension, family pets etc.
Kenneth:
Let me give an example,
I work now, for about twenty years with immigrants. Only one over all
those years I had to give the sack, due to a fight. Most of them never
made it to the second grade in school. Lack of education !? No,there
were posibilities, but they never had the chance to express themselves.
Who 's fault is this !? Society's no doubt about that !
There is no Intellect in Society, therefor they " choose " their representa-
tives, but are they " Intellectual " !? I don 't think so. They are, even more
stupid than the Society by which they are choosen.
Real Intellect is found within people, what is " BETWEEN " people,
the help we get, within the words, within the conversations.
Possible you can " educate " that, but from my stand here, I don 't think that, Intellect is something inside you, and I don 't have it here just about
a high IQ.
Richard:
In the case you highlight you are quite right but the representatives that see the colour of skin etc are not true representatives of intellect. I Can’t really comment on the rest of this as my own personal experiences don’t hold me in good stead for a discussion on this.!
Kenneth:
Richard, I suppose that whas not the kind of reply you were waiting for, but IMO anyway, your view is quite right, but I think, excuse me for using the words, a little bit " naive ". The parts about Dynamic and Static Value are just right, but the parts about human perspectives are IMO quite soft. Reality out there is far more harder...people are not just numbers, we are living being, we think therefor we are...but not all quite the same.
Richard:
I am not “expecting” any kind of reply other than a challenging one, and you certainly provided that so I’m not complaining! I accept your criticism of naivete, I think that in balance, my life has been fairly privileged compared to most so I probably haven’t had the experiences you have! However, I am very interested in how my view of the world fits with those that have had different experiences, and that is part of my reason for joining this group. I hope my views do not cause offense to you, my aim in all of this is to further my own education and not to destroy the views and experiences of other human beings.
Kind regards
Richard
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