ROG JUMPS IN WITH DAN AND RICHARD
Sorry guys, but I HAVE to jump in.
1) First, could you all define your terms? What exactly is society and what
is intellect? Be specific. I do not see that the two of you have even
reached a consensus on the terms. Richard is considering economics, politics
and law as intellectual patterns. This is the same issue I got into with
Marco. If these aren't social, then what is? The social level is about the
values of people interacting with each other. Certainly the intellect has
impacted these -- usually for the better -- but they are the basic social
values of cooperation, leadership and control and direction of acceptable
interactive behavior.
2) Dan has COMPLETELY misrepresented the MOQ as saying the intellect needs to
destroy and do battle with the social "in any fashion". Read the book. It
is about freeing itself from the lower level, not destroying the lower level.
Obviously there is some conflict and even some battles involved in freeing
itself, but Pirsig warns against destroying your foundation. (I guess I am
strongly in Richards camp on this one) BTW, I still never saw where levels
cannot perceive something two levels away. Are you sure this is in the book?
Please help ME to READ THE BOOK. ;^)
3) Dan, when is it that modern society "hangs you by the thumbs"? Is that
when you read a book or make a hypothesis or post a well thought out letter
on the MOQ forum or when you practice Zazen? Or is it when you break a law
or hurt someone? What do you mean by "get out of line"? Why all this disdain
for society?
4) Similarly, Richard suggests that those without cobblestone drives and
SUV's get sent to insane asylums. Who does this "locking up"? Who "sends you
away"? If the MOQ teaches anything , it is that our freedom doesn't depend
upon these things, NOR does it depend upon their absence. They are just
static patterns of value. Hell, even Phaedrus owned a boat. Certainly there
is social pressure to succeed (make a fortune off a book) and to be popular
(best selling author that meets Robert Redford) and to be beautiful (Ok, two
out of 3 ain't bad) and all that other social stuff, but if you recognize it
for what it is, you can take of it what you will and leave what you won't. I
guess I am saying that running from success is just as much a case of slavery
as being forced to be successful. Freedom is the key. Right?
Oh, and as an afterthought, if you plan to respond (in kind) by pointing out
how Phaedrus got "locked up", let's remember the guy was peeing himself and
burning his fingers. He wasn't exactly locked up for questiong Descartes. (I
can just picture Nurse Ratchett not letting him out until "You fully accept
the Aristotelian world view." ) ;^)
5) One last thing, all this disdain for "retribution" as some current disease
of societies seems kind of short-sighted. An eye-for-an-eye goes back for as
far as societies. Even apes have their primitive versions. I am not
suggesting that social revenge is the best course, but intellectually
speaking, we certainly know how to test it vs alternative methods. The
intellect suggests questioning assumptions and trying new solutions in a
containable way. It might be the best, or it might not. Those societies with
the best systems to control crime should be models for the others. (of
course, if you solve THIS problem you might create another).
Personally, I sure as heck wouldn't want to live somewhere else, and much of
my family (but not me) is relatively recently immigrated here (1st and 2nd
generation ).
But then again, I am often wrong, so I apologize in advance for being so
cynical of all the cynicism. Please load your guns and shoot back with both
barrells!
Rog
PS -- I posted my definitions of intellect last week. They do not align
perfectly with RMP, but then, he is really nebulous on it. I am still hoping
Marco responds on his definitions.
PPS -- I am starting to think that most of the criticisms in this forum
against society are themselves more social than intellectual. But then
again......
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