To Roger and all
(with a PS to Bo and Platt)
Finally my busy November ended, so I hope I have more time for the
discussion. Even if the TV has this evening in program a movie by one my
favorites directors (Pedro Almodovar), I answer to you "old" post on
intellectual level. Hope you forgive my little delay.....
ROGER ==>
1) Patterns are simplifications derived from the complex stream of
experience. All life attends to and selects and simplifies experience into
those patterns of most importance. Moving black dot = food for a frog.
Electric can opener sound = food for my cat.
MARCO ==>
Not only life, I guess. The inorganic world also "simplifies experience" and
behaves according to patterns. But if you are using "life" also for the
inorganic level, we agree.
ROGER ==>
2) The intellectual processes known as science, logic, math, philosophy,
etc. are the systematic processes of discovering, creating, or testing
patterns.
These processes were developed out of society and refined through the
combined learnings of some of the greatest minds of all time, including
Aristotle, Galileo, Kepler, Descartes and Popper. (Unfotunately, until
recently they have tended to follow SOM to the core)
MARCO ==>
OK. I agree on your list of processes, but it's the "etc." which can be a
little problem. If I add to your list of minds also Pablo Picasso, do you
agree?
(more about Art and Picasso below)
ROGER ==>
3) Intellectual patterns are those that have been created and "proven" via
these systematic intellectual processes.
MARCO ==>
Intellectual patterns created by intellectual processes. A tautology. Of
course true, but it doesn't add a lot, here.
ROGER==>
4) Intellectual patterns can be applied to the other levels. Indeed, this
was their original purpose.
MARCO==>
hmmmm ...IMO when intPoVs are applied to reality
the relation which is established is purely intellectual. That is: when
science (for example, biology) studies animals, the relation is
intellectual. The platypus (animal) studied by science is not really a
bioPoV, it's an intPoV. Intellect is able only to interact with "links to",
or "description of" reality, and these links and descriptions are
intellectual.
The same happens also at the other levels. For example, when Q-society
applies to "things" like sex, or nutrition (mainly biological), it interacts
with them only by means of social patterns. So we have social rituals to
interact with reality (weddings, conviviality and so on).
I don't see huge differences between the levels. At every level, patterns
are there just to be applied to ( to interact with ) all universe, by means
of their typical behaviors. The main differences reside in the tools they
use, and consequently in the kind of SQ created.
ROGER ==>
Note that the intellectual level is directly related to the pattern forming
process and the systematic ART of distinguishing the Quality of a pattern.
What distinguishes a good pattern? Below are some of the commonly recognized
features of good intellectual/scientific theories:
SIMPLIFICATION -- One key characteristic is in its ability to SIMPLIFY -- to
compress data into a usable form. In the words of physicist/metaphysicist
David Deutsch: “One comparatively simple and comprehensible theory can
cover an infinity of indigestible facts.” The philosophic term for this
quality
in science is "Occam's razor". All other things being equal, a good pattern
should avoid unnecessary complications, should be universal rather than
particular to a certain place or time, it should be relatively easy to apply
and devoid of extraneous baggage. Aesthetically, it should be elegant, not
held together with chewing-gum and string.
VERSATILITY -- Another quality is a pattern's VERSATILITY. For example, how
many different ways can a pattern be used? How adaptable is the pattern to
other environments or circumstances? Science, math, philosophy and
metaphysics are full of examples of how patterns from different fields are
found to have applications in ways never imagined when the meme/pattern was
first formulated.
TRUTH -- Another feature of a quality pattern that is widely recognized in
all intellectual patterns is TRUTH. This is covered extensively in the
writings of James and Pirsig. In SOM, truth often means objective laws that
float out there like some idealistic platonic form. In the MOQ, we know
that truth "is one species of good" that involves a pattern's correlation
with
experience and other patterns. In the famous words of James: "Realities are
not true, they ARE; and beliefs are true of them."
Intellectual patterns also need to correlate with other theories or other
intellectual patterns. James writes extensively on how new intellectual
patterns can sometimes conflict with other theories and beliefs. He
explains how we adjust our beliefs and graft the new one in a way that
minimizes disturbance to our basic belief structure while also encompassing
the new pattern. Pirsig and James also refer to this as "harmony".
MEASURABILITY/TESTABILITY -- Another characteristic of a good intellectual
pattern is its testability. Good theories are usually measurable,
quantifiable and falsifiable. A falsifiable scientific theory is always
chosen over an equal but unfalsifiable one.
RELEVENCE -- Remember Pirsig's example of the biology professor's
application for research grants? James calls this pragmatism, and built an
entire philosophy around it. I recommend every MOQ'er be familiar with
James.
Based upon the above qualities, science, philosophy, logic, math etc have
evolved through the process of evolutionary epistimology as espoused by Karl
Popper. (Blackmore would call it a special case of memetic evolutionary
theory).
MARCO ==>
I agree on Occam's razor and so on.... You offer a perfect description of
western science. But where is the evidence that western science is the whole
intellect? IMO this is only an assumption (btw, you are not far from Bo's
SOLAQI).
For example, I already offered in the past the example of Picasso's
Guernica. I can learn from that about the Spanish war more than from any
scientific description. The state of mind of people immersed in the tragedy
of a war is REAL, and it's expressed (explained and communicated) better by
means of a single picture than by means of tons of
simplified-versatile-testable scientific studies. And my intellectual
philosophical beliefs about war, socialism, fascism, justice... can be
strongly influenced by that picture (or by a movie, a novel, and so on).
Sometimes with more effectiveness than any scientific or philosophical
book.
ROGER ==>
IN SUMMARY:
The intellectual level concerns a systematic methodology to create better
and better patterns out of reality. It also applies to the patterns that are
derived through this process.
MARCO ==>
Firstly, for what I wrote above, IMO the creation of better and better
patterns out of reality is not exclusively intellectual. It has been so for
millennia (and maybe it is still) also at the other levels.
Secondly, the Picasso example I offered challenges you to find how is it
possible that my intellect is influenced by art. Both in your and Bo's
assumptions, Picasso is a Platypus. My attempt is to glimpse a possible
development of intellect out of the trap of scientific method. In order to
complete it: I'm not the enemy of intellect (like Bo seems to be), I'm just
arguing that what you are calling intellect is only the first step of
something that has unexploited possibilities.
After all, science has been mainly developed during the social age, and
intellectual patterns have been selected in order to survive in a precise
social environment. That's why science is very good to build bridges, while
it's a disaster to describe my state of mind.
Maybe you are like the biologist of the paleozoic age which argues that
multicellular life is the best possible form of evolved biology. My attempt
to put aesthetic-artistic patterns within the same frame of
scientific-methodologic-rational patterns points to the (maybe utopic)
purpose of an intellect which is able to provide both knowledge and beauty.
ROGER ==>
In memetic terms, the intellectual level involves the evolution of the best
memetic processes to discover, create and test other memes. Math, science,
logic and philosophy all involve the systematic development and study of
memetic pattern creation. Theories, theorems and postulates are simplified
intellectual models that allow us to identify, learn, categorize, record and
apply our experience. Through this methodology, higher quality ideas evolve.
Please let me know your thoughts,
Roger
MARCO ==>
Hope I did
tks for reading
Marco
p.s.
To Platt and Bo:
I've just read your posts. Hope I can answer soon. (Maybe I partially
answered to Platt's in this post).
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