If we define Quality as 'the goal of every activity',
then that poses a new problem- that is the exact same
definition used in the Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle
for happiness...which means a fixed set of values and
behavior to attain Quality...plus the entire dilemma
of inserting Quality into Aristotelian philosophy in a
new way...
to Marty-
Exactly...What if we are seeing Quality as merely a
new way to organize our sense data in an a priori way.
Kantian philosophy here becomes an enemy of the MOQ-
it can be reinterpreted as seeing Quality as another
mindset, another 'grid' (sorry there for bringing
Discordianism into a serious conversation :P). And
remember, if we remove the a priori modelling/the
mythos, one becomes insane. Therefore, with Hegelian
ethics, a society of insane men has very poor Quality,
so it can hardly be a blueprint for a good way to
live.
--- Marty Jorgensen <mjorgensen@vpdinc.com> wrote:
> Mr. Elephant -
> Sure, we can define Quality as "our goal of every
> activity", but that
> doesn't mean it has to exist - it just means that we
> are able to conceive of
> its existence. Also, the fact that something like
> mathematics can be modeled
> only says something about the way our brains see the
> world. When we are
> looking at math, or Quality, or God, we are looking
> at the way our brain
> organizes, sorts and interprets the world,; it
> doesn't necessarily say
> anything about the world itself.
> marty j
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of
> Etinarcardia@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 1:52 PM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD A question
>
>
> ELEPHANT TO JUSTIN (spork):
> I guess the answer to your question is that if math
> is our own modeling,
> then
> we are modelling it to some purpose, and so the
> motivation has to be a
> reality here. The same is true of a modelling of
> the metaphysics of
> Quality.
> Since Quality, by definition, is our goal in every
> activity, it is in the
> case of MOQ both the motivation and the thing we are
> motivated to model.
> So,
> O.K., this looks a little like the infamous
> Ontological Proof for the
> existence of God: Quality is the perfect object of
> all our desires,
> therefore
> it cannot but exist (supposing perfection involves
> existence). There are a
> number of things wrong with the ontological argument
> in so far as it is
> applied to God (Struan might like to fill in all the
> tedious details),
> mainly
> connected with the fact that the perfection of
> objects is a matter of the
> object's attributes, and existence isn't an
> attribute. However, when we
> apply the Ontological Proof to The Good, or Quality,
> which is itself
> generally conceived of as an attribute rather than
> an object, these points
> against the ontological proof do not apply. If
> these circuitous manouvers
> around the Ontological Proof interest you, check out
> Iris Murdoch:
> Metaphysics as a guide to morals ISBN 0140172327,
> CHAPTER 13. That thing
> you
> most trully desire must exist - Murdoch makes a case
> for this not being self
> indulgent fantasy, since good hard thinking about
> what it is you most trully
> desire leads to contemplation of a quite austere
> reality of satisfaction,
> the
> stuff which nirvana is made of. That help at all?
>
> BTW:
> I guess I would myself treat math as instrumental,
> but instrumental in a
> particularly rigid and compelling way... There are
> other 'maths', yet, at
> the same time, all 'maths' represent the one same
> 'maths', if you see what I
> mean: this being why Plato thought geometry such a
> good training: one is
> modelling, but one cannot model in an idle or self
> indulgent way: one will
> be
> quickly found out.
>
> -Pzeph
>
>
> JUSTIN WROTE:
> I got this problem from reading about
> interpretations
> of mathematics. It's called Conceptualism, and I
> think
> it poses a serious problem to the MOQ. Any help here
> or answers would be appreciated. Thanks.
>
> -As far as mathematics, Conceptualism states that we
> invent math, not discover it- it is our own
> modelling
> of reality in a way that we can intellectually
> understand. Math seems to fit nature so well (as per
> a
> Neo-Platonist claim) because we have designed it to
> do
> so.
>
> The same could be said of Quality. The idea of
> Quality
> can seem like it works to us now simply because
> Pirsig
> has designed the MOQ to work based off reality. With
> all our analogues we have built up to reality, how
> can
> we ever know we are truly seeing Quality?
>
> The problem, therefore, is the possibility that
> Quality does not exist in and of itself, but only as
> a
> model for our experiences. Every person will have
> their own definition of Quality, even w/out the
> analogues, because it is their own modelling of what
> they perceive they see because Pirsig has said it's
> out there.
>
>
> Again, thanks for any answers.
>
>
>
>
>
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