Hello everyone
>From: "Jonathan B. Marder" <jonathan.marder@newmail.net>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: MD Back on topic
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:50:21 +0300
>
>Hi Dan, Marco, Roger, Platt and all,
>
>Dan, our discussion on the second amendment was drifting off topic.
Hi Jonathan
The topic arose as a result of our investigating whether Robert Pirsig's
thesis concerning the American Indians vs. European values carries any
validity as far as a Dynamic/static meeting. I have read nothing that
refutes it and I don't see where it has gone off topic at all unless it is
taken out of the context meant.
>
>MARCO offers and excuse . . .
> >"The MOQ_DISCUSS mailing list exists to provide a general and
>free-ranging
>forum
> >for the discussion of Robert M. Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality. "
>
>. . .but in the end I don't think we need it, because you will see that
>this
>post ends up in familiar MoQ territory.
>
>However, let's start where we were, on the periphery . . .
>
>Dan and I both said that we dislike the idea of individuals carrying
>firearms.
>Where we disagree is that he thinks Amendment II grants this right.
>I think that America, in it's obsession with guns, has perverted a fine
>idea of
>its founding fathers.
>Where Dan is right is that what I call a "perversion" is the view that
>middle
>America has adopted, thus
We are not obsessed with guns here in America; that was one of the points I
have been trying to make all along. We are obsessed with freedom. I just
happen to view the right to bear arms as a Dynamic aspect of that.
>
>DAN
> >as an individual can go
> >down to the gun store right now and purchase a firearm, with no need of
>[him]
> >belonging to a well regulated militia.
>
>It sucks . . . but it's America's constitution, not mine, so who am I to
>criticise?
>There we should leave it, but Dan unexpectedly brought the subject back on
>topic:
>
>DAN
><<<So, does Amendment II pertain to only a collective people and
>their service in a well regulated militia? or does it pertain to
>individuals
>and their right to form well regulated militias? This is a very important
>point and it is my opinion that history has shown time and again that
>Amendment II is more about the individual's rights. Amendment II is
>designed
>to be a Dynamic right and according to the MOQ only individuals can respond
>to Dynamic Quality, a society cannot>>>.
>
>Dan, the alarm bells are ringing in my ears. Maybe the US constitution is
>yours
>to pervert, but the MoQ is not. Where do you get the idea that societies
>can't
>respond to Dynamic Quality? Wasn't the Zuni story about just that? Aren't
>Platt's and Roger's arguments in support of the free market about society
>remaining dynamic?
>From Lila, of course:
"And beyond that is an even more compelling reason: societies and thoughts
and principles themselves are no more than sets of static patterns. These
patterns can't by themselves perceive or adjust to Dynamic Quality. Only a
living being can do that." (pg. 185 Bantam paperback)
Perhaps you could explain how I am perverting the MOQ and setting alarm
bells off in your ears by saying societies cannot respond to Dynamic Quality
but individuals can? Are you saying a society CAN respond to Dynamic Quality
by itself? If so, then I would suggest it is your perversion of the MOQ and
not mine that is giving us problems here in coming to an agreement.
>
>I know that some participants probably think that there this discussion
>group
>has degenerated into something like London's infamous "Speaker's Corner",
>with
>little in the way of a unifying theme, but I see it quite differently.
>Pirsig's
>patterns at ALL levels are evolving patterns, and the way they interact and
>co-evolve is a part of every theme that gets discussed here.
I agree.
>
>Jonathan
>
>P.S. No hard feelings Dan - this has been a GOOD discussion for me too.
None taken. Thank you for your comments.
Dan
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