Hi Platt, yes, had I been of fighting age I probably would have been swept
up in the glory of it all. But then, that is what societies do to their
young men, when they have failed them in other ways. Was it a moral war? In
that it sought to stop fascism, and there was no alternative but to see
innocent people swept up in its destructive path, there was moral
justification to the battle. But can one not imagine how an intelligent
foreign policy might have stopped Hitler and his ilk in their tracks? A
foreign policy not burdened with the compromises that industrial interests
and weak policy analysis creates? You see, Platt, you view 'giving' one's
life as a symbol of commitment; I view it as a strategic choice. Would you
sacrifice your life when a superior alternative existed? I hope not. There
are better ways of achieving glory than an unnecessary martyrdom. And if
you seek martyrdom, I can suggest many causes that exist today that would
justify it, as readily as your WWII example. Care to volunteer?
As for the civil war...I cannot speak for Pirsig, nor know the reasons he
would argue for its morality. I'd be interested in your take on his views.
In the meantime, I will simply say that I see nothing moral in the civil
war. I see a bunch of broken down politicians, ego-driven, followed by a
bunch of broken-down generals inflicting enormous damage on a generation of
kids. And the odd thing is that the Europeans decided that there were
military lessons to be learned from the carnage, studied it voraciously
complete with battle-field tours post bellum, and managed to replicate the
insanity in places like Verdun a half century later. No, for me, morality
has to do with doing the right thing, and learning from mistakes. The
butchers of the US civil war and WWI fail on both counts. Ego should never
be allowed to masquerade as national or societal necessity, and kids must be
the first to call the old blighters on it.
Now, your last question begins to go in a more viable direction: who and
under what circumstances would one kill if they were trying to kill you (or,
if we can enlarge the question, deprive one of a highly held value)? No
longer are you promoting 'giving away' one's life, but of taking that of a
threatener. Good. What is your thinking on this?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Platt Holden
> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 8:49 AM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: RE: MD Things and levels
>
>
> Hi Lawrence:
>
> I see you are a hard man to pin down, so let me rephrase my
> questions. Would you have willingly served in the American armed
> forces in World War II? Would you consider that war moral? Do you
> agree with Pirsig that the U.S. Civil War was moral?
>
> Are these the sort of battles you would choose to "actively oppose" by
> trying to kill people who are trying to kill you?
>
> Platt
>
> > > Shall I presume that you would not risk your life in a fight
> > > against those
> > > who would enslave you?
> >
> > Risking one's life is different from 'giving' one's life, which
> I believe is
> > the original language that launched this thread. The fact is
> that I risk my
> > life every day and for things far less important than avoiding
> slavery. I
> > climb mountains, I ride a motorcycle. So risking one's life is
> not so much
> > the issue: rather, it is what we do with our lives. 'Giving" my life for
> > anything will never be high on my list of choices. Rather, I
> prefer to live
> > and win.
> >
> >
> > > It appears you would be willing to let others
> > > fight and die in a war against a totalitarian oppressor while
> you sat on
> > > the sidelines. Am I correct in my interpretation?
> >
> > No. For several reasons: first, I doubt I could stop people
> fighting and
> > dying against oppression, even should I wish to do so, so in no way am I
> > 'letting' anybody do so. People choose to do such things.
> Second, in fact
> > we all _do_ sit around while others _do_ die fighting
> oppression. I quick
> > look at today's newspaper headlines will give you several
> instances where
> > people are fighting against oppressive governments and dying.
> Do we condone
> > the oppression? No, but we do watch it happen and do little if
> anything to
> > stop it. Do you not do so, too?
> >
> > I choose my battles, and sometimes they involve active opposition to
> > oppression, and sometimes more subtle problems. In all cases I pay
> > considerable attention to my strategies, and throwing my life away
> > heroically if futilely is never a favored strategy.
> >
> > > Pirsig says according
> > > to an evolutionary morality that a society has a right to murder
> > > people to
> > > prevent its own destruction. What do you think? Is any war moral?
> >
> > I suppose individuals also have the right to declare war on a
> society that
> > is oppressive. I'm not sure that a system, such as a society,
> automatically
> > has a 'right' to kill any of its components. Of course, any system might
> > fight for its life, but that hardly means that the system is of such
> > intrinsic value that it automatically deserves to win.
> >
> > Is any war moral? I'm not sure what standard you are referring to with
> > regard to this morality. I do believe that war can become
> necessary, and I
> > doubt that war is the most immoral thing I can think of, so I
> think I would
> > lean in favor of saying that I can conceive of scenarios in
> which I would
> > judge a specific war moral, or at least moral-enough to support
> it, but I
> > need to know more about the standards that lie behind your use
> of the term
> > before I could much more of an opinion. For example, international law
> > specifies a number of conditions under which war is
> permissible, but does
> > this mean that wars initiated and conducted under these rules are
> > automatically moral? We would probably agree that they may not be, legal
> > standing not withstanding. So how do you define 'moral'?
> >
> > Lawrence
>
>
>
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