I'm not really sure where the conflict is. In Lila, Pirsig makes it quite
clear that DQ is the fifth level that transcends the intellectual.
Stephen M.
----- Original Message -----
From: <skutvik@online.no>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:58 AM
Subject: MD Re: A Fifth Level
> John B. and MD.
>
> You wrote:
> > The possibility of a fifth level transcending the intellectual has
> > been debated regularly on this forum. I am currently reading Ken
> > Wilber's 'Sex, Ecology, Spirituality', and thought his description of
> > Vision Logic (or Planetary Logic) might be a trigger for more focused
> > debate. It may also have something to say about the subject/object
> > divide that so concerned Pirsig.
>
> OK let's try to find out if a Pirsig/Wilber similarity is valid. I do
> however use the MoQ as the reference point, and I have only read
> Wilber's "Up From Eden", but believe that it contains his chief idea
> that existence is a movement from matter to spirit through various
> stages. There is a diagram on page 12: a circle divided in three
> segments: SUBCONSCIOUS-SELFCONSCIOUS-
> SUPERCONSCIOUS and on the outside a finer mesh of
> Nature/Body/Early Mind/Advanced Mind/Psychic/Subtle/
> Causal/Ultimate.
>
> However your following quote is from his "Sex, ecology, spirituality":
>
> > "As rationality continues its quest for a truly universal or global or
> > planetary outlook, noncoercive in nature, it eventually gives way to a
> > type of cognition I call vision-logic or network-logic ... 'a system
> > or totality of truth-seeing at a single view; the relations of idea
> > with idea, of truth with truth, self-seen in the integral whole'
> > [Aurobindo] ... Vision-logic is a higher holon that operates upon (and
> > thus transcends) its junior holons, such as simple rationality itself.
> > As such, vision-logic can hold in mind contradictions, it can unify
> > opposites, it is dialectical and non-linear, and it weaves together
> > what otherwise appear to be incompatible notions, as long as they
> > relate together in the new and higher holon, negated in their
> > partiality but preserved in their positive contributions ... Hegel
> > maintained that the central defining characteristic of Reason
> > (vision-logic) was its capacity to unify opposites and see identity in
> > difference." (p 185)
>
> I take it that you see the Q-intellectual level as a parallel to
> Wilber's "reason" and .....giving way to a type of cognition I call
> vision-logic or network-logic" .....is a possible 5th Q-level? As said
> there has been many suggestions to an out-of-Intellect movement
> and that most of them has been in the super-something vein and
> this sounds like more of the same.
>
> What grates my nerves regarding Wilber is the matter-becoming-
> imbued-with-mind notion. The Q sequence may at a quick glance
> be seen as the same, but inorganic value isn't matter nor is mind
> intellectual value, and my old premontion of the more similar-
> sounding the greater the "danger" (for MoQ) of becoming involved in
> this well-meaning but blind alley.
>
> Earlier it was Danah Zohar who "said almost the same" - and close
> she got admittedly, but just before making the inevitably insight
> she backed out and retreated to the safe subject-object bastion.
> And if the Intellect=SOM and 5th level=Quality comparisons hold
> water its natural. Intellect wants no rebellion and most people are
> scared into obediance.
>
> > "The worldview or worldspace of vision-logic I also refer to as
> > 'existential' and 'centauric' ... 'Centaur' is the mythic beast, half
> > human and half horse, which I ... have taken as a symbol of the
> > integration of body and mind, or biosphere and noosphere. For if it is
> > true that, a few hundred years ago, we finally succeeded in clearly
> > differentiating these two great domains, it is equally true that we
> > have not yet found a way to integrate them ... The previous structure
> > (the egoic-rational), Gebser refers to as the 'rational-perspectival,'
> > because rationality can indeed take different perspectives, as we saw.
> > But vision-logic, or the integral-aperspectival mind, adds up all the
> > perspectives tout ensemble, and therefore privileges no perspective as
> > final: it is aperspectival ... The aperspectival mind, in other words,
> > is holonic through and through: contexts within contexts withon
> > contexts forever. Of course, every structure of consciousness is
> > actually holonic (there are only holons), but vision-logic consciously
> > grasps this fact for the first time, and thus finds its own operation
> > increasingly transparent to itself ... The world is in the midst of
> > the tortuous birth throes of a collective emergence of an entirely new
> > structure of consciousness, the centaur in vision-logic, the
> > integral-aperspectival mind." (pp 186 - 188)
>
> The biosphere and noosphere sounds like Teilhard de Chardin, but
> anyway, what lacks with them all is the SOCIOSPHERE, and its
> absence reveals the light-years distance. In the MoQ there is no
> mind-out-of-matter but intellect-out-of-society and that is something
> completely different.
>
> > "As Georg Feurstein ... says ... 'This nascent structure of
> > consciousness, for the first time in human history, permits the
> > conscious integration of all previous (but co-present) structures, and
> > through this act of integration the human personality becomes, as it
> > were, transparent to itself' ... 'it is grounded in ones' unmitigated
> > acceptance of, or primal trust in, corporeality. It is the transparent
> > body-mind.' " (p 189)
>
> I believe all - Wilber, Teilhard, Gebser, Feurstein, Aurobindo,
> Beasley - want what's good, but as long as it's is woven in the
> mind/matter warp it will lead nowhere.
>
> > "Integral-aperspectival consciousness is especially a consciousness of
> > language ... 'Language itself is treated as a primordial phenomenon by
> > recognizing its originating creative nature.' [Gebser]" (pp 189-190)
>
> (LILA p.63) ".....Poor Kluckhohn, with that lead balloon for a vehicle
> there was no way that he could succeed".
>
> Please take your time.
> Bo
>
>
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