Breaking the mind/matter barrier is analogous to breaking the subject/object
barrier. So in a way it may be closer to MoQ than you think.
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On
Behalf Of skutvik@online.no
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 2:58 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: MD Re: A Fifth Level
John B. and MD.
You wrote:
> The possibility of a fifth level transcending the intellectual has
> been debated regularly on this forum. I am currently reading Ken
> Wilber's 'Sex, Ecology, Spirituality', and thought his description of
> Vision Logic (or Planetary Logic) might be a trigger for more focused
> debate. It may also have something to say about the subject/object
> divide that so concerned Pirsig.
OK let's try to find out if a Pirsig/Wilber similarity is valid. I do
however use the MoQ as the reference point, and I have only read
Wilber's "Up From Eden", but believe that it contains his chief idea
that existence is a movement from matter to spirit through various
stages. There is a diagram on page 12: a circle divided in three
segments: SUBCONSCIOUS-SELFCONSCIOUS-
SUPERCONSCIOUS and on the outside a finer mesh of
Nature/Body/Early Mind/Advanced Mind/Psychic/Subtle/
Causal/Ultimate.
However your following quote is from his "Sex, ecology, spirituality":
> "As rationality continues its quest for a truly universal or global or
> planetary outlook, noncoercive in nature, it eventually gives way to a
> type of cognition I call vision-logic or network-logic ... 'a system
> or totality of truth-seeing at a single view; the relations of idea
> with idea, of truth with truth, self-seen in the integral whole'
> [Aurobindo] ... Vision-logic is a higher holon that operates upon (and
> thus transcends) its junior holons, such as simple rationality itself.
> As such, vision-logic can hold in mind contradictions, it can unify
> opposites, it is dialectical and non-linear, and it weaves together
> what otherwise appear to be incompatible notions, as long as they
> relate together in the new and higher holon, negated in their
> partiality but preserved in their positive contributions ... Hegel
> maintained that the central defining characteristic of Reason
> (vision-logic) was its capacity to unify opposites and see identity in
> difference." (p 185)
I take it that you see the Q-intellectual level as a parallel to
Wilber's "reason" and .....giving way to a type of cognition I call
vision-logic or network-logic" .....is a possible 5th Q-level? As said
there has been many suggestions to an out-of-Intellect movement
and that most of them has been in the super-something vein and
this sounds like more of the same.
What grates my nerves regarding Wilber is the matter-becoming-
imbued-with-mind notion. The Q sequence may at a quick glance
be seen as the same, but inorganic value isn't matter nor is mind
intellectual value, and my old premontion of the more similar-
sounding the greater the "danger" (for MoQ) of becoming involved in
this well-meaning but blind alley.
Earlier it was Danah Zohar who "said almost the same" - and close
she got admittedly, but just before making the inevitably insight
she backed out and retreated to the safe subject-object bastion.
And if the Intellect=SOM and 5th level=Quality comparisons hold
water its natural. Intellect wants no rebellion and most people are
scared into obediance.
> "The worldview or worldspace of vision-logic I also refer to as
> 'existential' and 'centauric' ... 'Centaur' is the mythic beast, half
> human and half horse, which I ... have taken as a symbol of the
> integration of body and mind, or biosphere and noosphere. For if it is
> true that, a few hundred years ago, we finally succeeded in clearly
> differentiating these two great domains, it is equally true that we
> have not yet found a way to integrate them ... The previous structure
> (the egoic-rational), Gebser refers to as the 'rational-perspectival,'
> because rationality can indeed take different perspectives, as we saw.
> But vision-logic, or the integral-aperspectival mind, adds up all the
> perspectives tout ensemble, and therefore privileges no perspective as
> final: it is aperspectival ... The aperspectival mind, in other words,
> is holonic through and through: contexts within contexts withon
> contexts forever. Of course, every structure of consciousness is
> actually holonic (there are only holons), but vision-logic consciously
> grasps this fact for the first time, and thus finds its own operation
> increasingly transparent to itself ... The world is in the midst of
> the tortuous birth throes of a collective emergence of an entirely new
> structure of consciousness, the centaur in vision-logic, the
> integral-aperspectival mind." (pp 186 - 188)
The biosphere and noosphere sounds like Teilhard de Chardin, but
anyway, what lacks with them all is the SOCIOSPHERE, and its
absence reveals the light-years distance. In the MoQ there is no
mind-out-of-matter but intellect-out-of-society and that is something
completely different.
> "As Georg Feurstein ... says ... 'This nascent structure of
> consciousness, for the first time in human history, permits the
> conscious integration of all previous (but co-present) structures, and
> through this act of integration the human personality becomes, as it
> were, transparent to itself' ... 'it is grounded in ones' unmitigated
> acceptance of, or primal trust in, corporeality. It is the transparent
> body-mind.' " (p 189)
I believe all - Wilber, Teilhard, Gebser, Feurstein, Aurobindo,
Beasley - want what's good, but as long as it's is woven in the
mind/matter warp it will lead nowhere.
> "Integral-aperspectival consciousness is especially a consciousness of
> language ... 'Language itself is treated as a primordial phenomenon by
> recognizing its originating creative nature.' [Gebser]" (pp 189-190)
(LILA p.63) ".....Poor Kluckhohn, with that lead balloon for a vehicle
there was no way that he could succeed".
Please take your time.
Bo
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