TO: MARK
FROM: ROG
MARK:
I note that some list member have been discussing the pursuit of happiness,
a founding principle of American society. The problem is that this principle
suffers from the same degeneration as other values. To those who founded it,
the true meaning was the persuit of freedom, equality, brotherhood and
safety. The things that they and their father's had lacked. It was the
absense of these things that they blamed their misery, that is lack of
happiness on.
(A possible meaning is the persuit of a society which perpertuates highest
possible quality)
Today, America is (relatively)safe, free, equal and united. These things are
woven into contempory America, no longer things that need the powerful
aspiration of a fledgling nation. Instead happiness now means
wealth,consumption and decadent indulgence.
Not an argument, but a fact written in the demographics of US body weight. A
nation that leads the world in fatness.
The only time I recall America ever attempting to restrain its basic desires
was the so called 'noble experiment' of the 1920's (Alcohol Prohibition). A
situation that lends itself quite well to anaysis using MOQ.
ROG:
You are indeed hitting upon something essential in America. However, I
reject your view that freedom in America was only extended to such
high-minded pursuits as "equality, brotherhood and safety." To understand
the principles of THE US government, it is important to read what the
originators were thinking when they formed the Constitution. This was drafted
about a decade after the Declaration of Independence (if memory serves me ),
and included the learnings of a chaotic initial experiment of loosely
confederated, petty, basically fucked up bunch of independent states. There
was probably nobody more influential in the constitution than James Madison.
And he addresses this issue in THE FEDERALIST PAPERS.
To paraphrase an essential aspect of American thought, in Federalist number
10, Madison addressed the issues of factions of clashing interests. He
wasn't concerned with noble cooperative desires, he specifically was
addressing passions and interests that are potentially adverse to other
citizens. He gives examples of squabbles over shillings and between debtors
and creditors, manufacturers and merchants, etc. Madison suggests that there
are two ways to address conflicting interests in society -- by either
removing the causes or by controlling for the effects.
He goes on to state that you can control causes either by removing liberty or
by forcing everybody to have the same view/opinions/goals. He rejects the
first as a cure worse than the disease, and rejects the second as both
impractical and unwise. People are diverse in desires, opinions and
faculties, and the primary goal of government is to protect this freedom.
Madison's conclusion is that the way to control conflicting passions and
selfishness and factions is through the checks and balances of competing
interests. Since a government can't morally or effectively control the
causes of diverse desires and interests, it must instead consciously
establish a system where the harmful effects of self interest and faction are
offset by competing interests. They then build a govenment of incredible
checks and balances of different factions at vastly different levels of
representation and in different branches at state and federal level with
differing electoral periods and methods.
The USA was formed with similar vision regarding economic, spiritual and
local factions. America believes that, where competition can work (it
obviously can't in lots of ways), that the best results come from allowing
diverse goals and desires to counteract each other's harmful abuses.
Sorry for the long answer, but I think the American focus on individualism
and competitive checks and balances is MUCH deeper than you assume. I also
must cringe at your characterization of American happiness as now meaning
"wealth,consumption and decadent indulgence." This silly stereotype is
laughable and says more about the statement maker than it does about the 300
million people that it tries to encapsulate. You want decadence, we have our
share of it. If you want dedicated scientists or noble humanitarians --
well, we probably have our share of them too. We have huge populations of
devout religious believers, we have gang members, we have entrepeneurs, and
we have welfare mothers.
MARK:
I am the last person to belittle America. I speak only to add balance to
such discussion regarding America's supposed superiority in all things.
ROG:
I continue to be amazed at the wierd way that members gang up on the US.
Marco (an Italian) wrote one nice letter in respect for our loss, and the
next thing I know we get stereotyped as a fanatical, pea pod, culturally
retarded, oil stealing, bent people that got what we deserved. A few of us
respond that this might be a little bit petty and mean spirited and offer
some opposing views, and then we get folks like yourself and John calling us
fat and indulgent pigs and religious fanatics to "add balance". Thanks
partner! We needed it.
What is it about America that attracts so many snide, catty attacks? Do
other countries really talk about us that much? If so , I guess I should be
honored. To be honest, we virtually never say anything good or bad about
your countries (though sometimes people think the french are rude... I don't
know this to be the case, but in full disclosure I have heard it). Are there
mean editorials against us in other countries? Do politicians and
intellectuals discuss us? If so, be careful. My guess is that you get more
of their agenda in what you learn of the country than you get of the truth.
Though for the record, I really am a decadent, fat, drunken, rittlin-taking
Britney spears fan.
But then again i could be teasing. Seriously Mark, I understand you don't
mean to be mean, and that America needs to listen to criticism.
Rog
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